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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:52:11 -0500
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With all due respect Uri, you're not being particularly friendly.
This is a list for beginners, people are going to say things you
think are stupid from time to time, but you should either stay
your hand or be more constructive. Looking at your last few
posts the quoted text below isn't an isolated case...
Speaking as someone who was once a beginner himself ( ;-) ),
please be a tad more constructive and a bit more warm and
friendly :)

Perhaps these two entries from the FAQ might be appropriate:
[1]http://learn.perl.org/faq/beginners.html#2.3 are there any
rules
[2]http://learn.perl.org/faq/beginners.html#2.6 is there
anything i should keep in mind while answering

Robin

On 28 Jan 2011, at 05:45, Uri Guttman wrote:



"BL" == Ben Lavery <ben.lavery [at] gmail.com> writes:



BL> Personally, I'd like to see a way of executing a perl

BL> script/application in such a way that Perl runs off and grabs
any

BL> required modules from CPAN (if the user has permission, of
course).



that makes very little sense. what if the program is running on a
box

with no net connection? there are many other reasons why that is
a silly

thing to desire. i will leave it as an exercise to list them.



uri



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References

1. http://learn.perl.org/faq/beginners.html#2.3 are there any rules
2. http://learn.perl.org/faq/beginners.html#2.6 is there anything i should keep in mind while answering

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>>>>> "RK" == Robin Kenyon <robin_kenyon [at] fastmail.co.uk> writes:

RK> With all due respect Uri, you're not being particularly friendly.
RK> This is a list for beginners, people are going to say things you
RK> think are stupid from time to time, but you should either stay
RK> your hand or be more constructive. Looking at your last few
RK> posts the quoted text below isn't an isolated case...
RK> Speaking as someone who was once a beginner himself ( ;-) ),
RK> please be a tad more constructive and a bit more warm and
RK> friendly :)


RK> that makes very little sense. what if the program is running on a
RK> box with no net connection? there are many other reasons why that
RK> is a silly thing to desire. i will leave it as an exercise to list
RK> them.

if you think that was unfriendly, you need to see more stuff on the
net. the worst i said was silly. saying not making sense is factual
IMNSHO. note that the poster didn't reply as to why they wanted this
with some concrete reasons. among the reasons it is a silly idea is that
module will have dependencies, they will need c compilers if xs is used,
they ask questions of the user during installation, etc. none of those
would be nice to happen at run time as the OP wants.

sometimes it is better to slap a newbie on the wrist than to coddle them
with sweet nothings. this is one case where the idea needs to be shot
down quickly before it can fester and grow.

uri

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On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 18:00 -0500, "Uri Guttman" <uri [at] StemSystems.com>
wrote:
> >>>>> "RK" == Robin Kenyon <robin_kenyon [at] fastmail.co.uk> writes:
>
> RK> With all due respect Uri, you're not being particularly friendly.
> RK> This is a list for beginners, people are going to say things you
> RK> think are stupid from time to time, but you should either stay
> RK> your hand or be more constructive. Looking at your last few
> RK> posts the quoted text below isn't an isolated case...
> RK> Speaking as someone who was once a beginner himself ( ;-) ),
> RK> please be a tad more constructive and a bit more warm and
> RK> friendly :)
>
>
> RK> that makes very little sense. what if the program is running on a
> RK> box with no net connection? there are many other reasons why that
> RK> is a silly thing to desire. i will leave it as an exercise to list
> RK> them.
>
> if you think that was unfriendly, you need to see more stuff on the
> net. the worst i said was silly. saying not making sense is factual
> IMNSHO. note that the poster didn't reply as to why they wanted this
> with some concrete reasons. among the reasons it is a silly idea is that
> module will have dependencies, they will need c compilers if xs is used,
> they ask questions of the user during installation, etc. none of those
> would be nice to happen at run time as the OP wants.
>
> sometimes it is better to slap a newbie on the wrist than to coddle them
> with sweet nothings. this is one case where the idea needs to be shot
> down quickly before it can fester and grow.
>
> uri

As a teacher, I'd disagree...My experience leads me to believe bluntly
shooting down beginners discourages them. I wouldn't be surprised if
the poster has left the list and perhaps even gone as far as leaving
perl well alone, depending on his current level of ability.

I'm not saying that what he said made sense, I do agree with what you
said in general. But you really shouldn't shoot beginners down like
that, as I said, it generally discourages them.

Anything else should probably be discussed off list as I'd agree this is
very off-topic.

Robin

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>>>>> "RK" == Robin Kenyon <robin_kenyon [at] fastmail.co.uk> writes:

RK> As a teacher, I'd disagree...My experience leads me to believe bluntly
RK> shooting down beginners discourages them. I wouldn't be surprised if
RK> the poster has left the list and perhaps even gone as far as leaving
RK> perl well alone, depending on his current level of ability.

i teach perl as well. when i see someone going down a rabbit hole it is
important to stop that before it gets too far. if they leave the list or
perl, they won't be happy in any other language or forum since that is
how computers work. they are unforgiving and those with thin skins who
can't take seeing error messages (from humans OR computers) will likley
move on. programming isn't for everyone however easy it may seem on the
surface.

i give out a general programming quiz to students. one pair of the
questions is why is programming easy? and why is programming hard?

let's see your answers. :)

uri

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On 11-02-01 06:36 PM, Uri Guttman wrote:
> why is programming easy?

Because computers so exactly what you tell them to and no more.

> and why is programming hard?

Because computers so exactly what you tell them to and no more.


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On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 18:36 -0500, "Uri Guttman" <uri [at] StemSystems.com>
wrote:
> >>>>> "RK" == Robin Kenyon <robin_kenyon [at] fastmail.co.uk> writes:
>
> RK> As a teacher, I'd disagree...My experience leads me to believe
> bluntly
> RK> shooting down beginners discourages them. I wouldn't be surprised
> if
> RK> the poster has left the list and perhaps even gone as far as
> leaving
> RK> perl well alone, depending on his current level of ability.
>
> i teach perl as well. when i see someone going down a rabbit hole it is
> important to stop that before it gets too far. if they leave the list or
> perl, they won't be happy in any other language or forum since that is
> how computers work. they are unforgiving and those with thin skins
> can't take seeing error messages (from humans OR computers) will likley
> move on. programming isn't for everyone however easy it may seem on the
> surface.
>
> i give out a general programming quiz to students. one pair of the
> questions is why is programming easy? and why is programming hard?
>
> let's see your answers. :)
>
> uri

I would say, as a beginner:
Programming is easy because it's all about telling the computer what you
want it to do (though you might think you've told it what you want it to
do, it may do something else based on what you've actually told it to
do). Two computers are generally not going to do something different
based on the same command in the similar environment. It is easy
because you know you can do anything.
Programming is hard because it's abstract, it's difficult to explain,
many places/people explain it poorly, and everyone needs it explained
differently. Programming generally takes a lot of time to get something
half decent, then it's not so bad. Problem solving doesn't always come
naturally, though can be nurtured. And as stated above, you might thing
you've told the computer to do something, but you may not have
understood what you actually asked it to do.

Once one is more experienced:
Programming is easy because you know what you are doing most of the
time. Poorly documented libraries/modules/etc. you can figure out based
on previous knowledge. You understand the foundation of programming and
you understand the language you are using.
Programming is hard because the more you do, the higher you set your
sights. You look to bigger and better challenges and you realise just
how vast computing and programming is.

Not a set of questions I've been asked before...
While I agree that you should stop people going down the wrong path
early, I still think some consideration should be made, explaining why
they are going down the wrong path is, in my opinion, better than
kicking them on to the right one.

Robin

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>>>>> "RK" == Robin Kenyon <robin_kenyon [at] fastmail.co.uk> writes:

RK> I would say, as a beginner:
RK> Programming is easy because it's all about telling the computer what you
RK> want it to do (though you might think you've told it what you want it to
RK> do, it may do something else based on what you've actually told it to
RK> do). Two computers are generally not going to do something different
RK> based on the same command in the similar environment. It is easy
RK> because you know you can do anything.

the best answer i have is that anyone can do some level of
programming. giving directions or how to make a recipe are common
examples in everyday life. basic logical decisions and tracking them is
innate in humans.

RK> Programming is hard because it's abstract, it's difficult to explain,
RK> many places/people explain it poorly, and everyone needs it explained
RK> differently. Programming generally takes a lot of time to get something
RK> half decent, then it's not so bad. Problem solving doesn't always come
RK> naturally, though can be nurtured. And as stated above, you might thing
RK> you've told the computer to do something, but you may not have
RK> understood what you actually asked it to do.

my answer (and for both newbie and experienced) is the single word
scaling. and that answer has two dimensions. scaling from a toy program
to a larger one is difficult. a db could be a simple CSV file. scaling
that to a large rdbms is not trivial. this is true of a single developer
scaling to a large team as well. the other dimension of scale is
breadth of knowledge. there is so much you can learn in the computer
world that we all must specialize to some degree or another. which means
we need others to do work for us as we can't do it all. i have my coding
strengths and weaknesses (graphics, security are two major ones) as do
all of us. no one can scale their knowledge to the size of the computer
field out there.

RK> Once one is more experienced:
RK> Programming is easy because you know what you are doing most of the
RK> time. Poorly documented libraries/modules/etc. you can figure out based
RK> on previous knowledge. You understand the foundation of programming and
RK> you understand the language you are using.
RK> Programming is hard because the more you do, the higher you set your
RK> sights. You look to bigger and better challenges and you realise just
RK> how vast computing and programming is.

the vast comment is close to what to my answer.


uri

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On 01/02/2011 23:00, Uri Guttman wrote:
>
> if you think that was unfriendly, you need to see more stuff on the
> net.

It is not a defense to imply that anything you say is fine, as long as
somebody else does something worse.

- Rob

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From: "Shawn H Corey" <shawnhcorey [at] gmail.com>
>> why is programming easy?
>
> Because computers so exactly what you tell them to and no more.


Unless you use Windows... :-)

Octavian


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