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Hi All



I would like to know answers of following questions :



- What all advantages Perl has on top of other scripting languages like
Python , shell , Java ?



- What is the career growth, road map in Perl programming ?



I am not sure , if this questions are right for this group mail or not ,
just asked . If it is not , please let me know which group can answer
these .





Thanks

Sunita






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> - What all advantages Perl has on top of other scripting languages like
> Python , shell , Java ?

Its a never ending argument but the best advantage of Perl (according
to me) is light weight, very fast, Open Source, CPAN modules,
excellent documentation, small and easy way to do complex thing and
community support like this mailing list :). And the best thing which
I like about Perl compared to Java is you don't have to compile and
then run the byte code. I just hate that in Java (sorry to say that).
:(

> - What is the career growth, road map in Perl programming ?

Its very good and Perl is in great demand. Perl is being used in most
of the Server side and database testing and in most Automation and
administration tasks. To name few, its being used by top most
companies like Akamai and NetApp (and the list is very long). I would
always recommend to learn Perl to any beginner.

> I am not sure , if this questions are right for this group mail or not ,
> just asked . If it is not , please let me know which group can answer
> these .

I believe its a valid question and you have posted on the correct forum.


Cheers,
Parag




On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Sunita Rani Pradhan
<Sunita.Pradhan [at] altair.com> wrote:
> Hi All
>
>
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would like to know answers of =
following questions =C2=A0:
>
>
>
> - What all advantages Perl has on top of other scripting languages like
> Python , shell , Java ?
>
>
>
> - What is the career growth, road map in Perl programming ?
>
>
>
> I am not sure , if this questions are right for this group mail or not ,
> just asked . If it is not , please let me know which group can answer
> these .
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Sunita
>
>
>
>
>
>

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On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:42:28 +0530, Sunita Rani Pradhan wrote:
> I would like to know answers of following questions :
>
> - What all advantages Perl has on top of other scripting languages like
> Python , shell , Java ?
>
> - What is the career growth, road map in Perl programming ?

These questions are more of a Rohrshach test for the reader than anything
else. Without any idea of what goal you are trying to satisfy any answer
is essentially useless. It is like the old saw that a recession is when
the other guy is out of work and a depression is when you are out of work:
aggregate statistics--and industry trends--are of very little importance
compared to your personal priorities.

If you want a language with a large install base, learn COBOL. If you
want cool IDEs, learn Java. Me, I don't care whether there's more money
in Java, it wouldn't be enough for me. And if money's the top priority,
become a lawyer.

So I can't see any answers to those questions being of use unless you tell
us why you want to know. Are they an assignment for a term paper? Are
you writing a trade magazine article? Or something else? If you're
asking in regard to your own career path then we'd need to know a lot more
about what your priorities and background are.

--
Peter Scott
http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/
http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=0137001274
http://www.oreillyschool.com/courses/perl3/

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From: "Sunita Rani Pradhan" <Sunita.Pradhan [at] altair.com>
> - What all advantages Perl has on top of other scripting languages like
> Python , shell , Java ?



Compared with Python:

Advantages:
- Perl offers more free helpful modules for web programming and system
administration
- Perl is much more flexible than Python
- Perl is better than Python for working with data structures (arrays,
hashes...) and much better for parsing text.
- Perl's syntax doesn't enforce indentation.
- The same kind of modules Perl offers are much more advanced than Python's
modules for ORMS, templating systems, web frameworks, form processors.
- Perl's Moose object system is much advanced than Python's object system
(but note that I compare Moose with Python's default OO system because I
don't know if Python also has a module like Moose that offers aditional
features, but I guess that it doesn't).
- Perl has CPAN, a great archive with a lot of modules and programs like
cpan, cpanplus, cpanminus that can be used to install modules very easy.
- For Perl the backward compatibility is important, although this doesn't
promote very well the newer versions of Perl.

Disadvantages:
- Python is prefered by software companies, because it enforce a single
style of programming, not the "there is more than one way to do it" style.
- Python has a much better support for Windows than Perl.
- Python has a better support for desktop apps than Perl.
- Python can be used with newer technologies better than Perl (under Symbian
phone for example), There are much more Python programmers that downloaded
Python for Android than Perl for Android.
- Python can cooperate better with other successful technologies like DotNet
and Java.
- Python compiles its modules to bytecode (like Java) so they run faster.
- Python is used by Google for their dynamic pages and the creator of Python
is employed by Google and this is a good promotion.
- For Python the backward compatibility doesn't seem to be so important, so
x = 2 / 3 gives a different result in Python 2.x than in 3.x (0 and
0.666...)

With other words, I think that Perl is better than Python for web
programming and system administration and Python is better for desktop apps
and for newer technologies.
Perl is better if you live in an area where there are already a large base
of Perl programs that need to be maintained and Python is prefered by
younger programmers because it is much cleaner (and because the young
programmers need a job, and the jobs are offered by software companies that
like the language they use to be as standard as possible).
The core language of Python is standard more because of its syntax, because
otherwise, in some cases there are much too many ways to do some things in
Python also, so the thing that "there is only one way to do it" in Python is
not exactly true.

With the bash the comparison is much simple because Perl can do much more
things than bash and much more simple.

Compared with Java:

Advantages:
- Perl doesn't need to pre-compile the code so it is easier to use it for
web-based apps.
- Perl is not strongly-typed so it is easier to use it with a much bigger
productivity.
- There are much more free modules that can be found and installed easy. For
Java there are a lot of apps, but harder to find.

Disadvantages:
- Java has a better support for threading than Perl.
- Java is much better sustained financially by Oracle/Sun, IBM... and
because of this is also prefered in the enterprise field.
- Java has some optimizations that makes the programs faster automaticly. In
Perl can be made those optimizations, but harder (not very important because
Perl is very fast anyway).

There may be many other advantages or disadvantages I have forgotten to tell
about but these are just a few that might help you to have an idea...

Octavian


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>>>>> "OR" == Octavian Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com> writes:

OR> Disadvantages:
OR> - Python is prefered by software companies, because it enforce a
OR> single style of programming, not the "there is more than one way to do
OR> it" style.

preferred? plenty of companies prefer perl.

OR> - Python has a much better support for Windows than Perl.

huh?? perl runs fine on winblows and has many cpan modules for it.

OR> - Python has a better support for desktop apps than Perl.

perl has multiple gui bindings.

OR> - Python compiles its modules to bytecode (like Java) so they run faster.

wrong. perl compiles to byte code too. get your facts straight. python
has never been shown to be faster than perl

OR> - Python is used by Google for their dynamic pages and the creator of
OR> Python is employed by Google and this is a good promotion.

so what? amazon uses perl a ton. that is very specious and useless.

OR> - For Python the backward compatibility doesn't seem to be so
OR> important, so x = 2 / 3 gives a different result in Python 2.x than in
OR> 3.x (0 and 0.666...)

and that makes for more work for coding python, making sure you code to
the version. not a benefit

OR> With other words, I think that Perl is better than Python for web
OR> programming and system administration and Python is better for desktop
OR> apps and for newer technologies.

again, bogus logic.

OR> Perl is better if you live in an area where there are already a large
OR> base of Perl programs that need to be maintained and Python is
OR> prefered by younger programmers because it is much cleaner (and
OR> because the young programmers need a job, and the jobs are offered by
OR> software companies that like the language they use to be as standard
OR> as possible).

live?? what does where you live have to do with a language?

OR> The core language of Python is standard more because of its syntax,
OR> because otherwise, in some cases there are much too many ways to do
OR> some things in Python also, so the thing that "there is only one way
OR> to do it" in Python is not exactly true.

and that means less creativity as well. you don't understand coding if
you think restrictions are good.

this is typical of this sort of thread. misinformation, rumors,
unfounded biases, etc. the whole topic is useless. use whatever
languague you like best. if you want different jobs learn different
languages. comparing langs like this is a silly and wasteful exercise.

uri

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From: "Uri Guttman" <uri [at] StemSystems.com>>>>>>> "OR" == Octavian Rasnita
<orasnita [at] gmail.com> writes:
> OR> Disadvantages:
> OR> - Python is prefered by software companies, because it enforce a
> OR> single style of programming, not the "there is more than one way to
> do
> OR> it" style.
>
> preferred? plenty of companies prefer perl.

Not in my country, so this is not generally true.

> OR> - Python has a much better support for Windows than Perl.
>
> huh?? perl runs fine on winblows and has many cpan modules for it.

Yes, but Python has a better support. WxPython has a much better
documentation than WxPerl. There are better GUI-based apps that can be used
especially for creating WxPython interfaces.
Python has better modules for interacting with the operating system and I've
seen even 2 screen readers made in Python, one is Orca made by Sun that runs
under Linux, and one is NVDA that runs under Windows.
Most Perl documentation for Windows just recommend reading the horrible
MSDN...
Most Perl experts don't care about Windows at all (and even call it Winblows
to show that it is something bad) and there are too many Perl modules which
are not portable to Windows and so on...

> OR> - Python has a better support for desktop apps than Perl.
>
> perl has multiple gui bindings.

Python has even more, but this is not so important. It is important that the
documentation for them is better, especially for WxPython. Even the Perl
programmers need to read WxPython's documentation if they don't know C to be
able to easy understand the documentation for WxPerl.

> OR> - Python compiles its modules to bytecode (like Java) so they run
> faster.
>
> wrong. perl compiles to byte code too. get your facts straight. python
> has never been shown to be faster than perl

Perl compiles to bytecode but it doesn't save the compiled file, so in
non-persistent programs like FastCGI or mod_perl the programs must be
compiled again and again.
Python saves the compiled bytecode of its modules automaticly and if the
next time the program runs, the compiled bytecode is ran without needing to
compile the code again.

Python may not be faster than Perl in all cases, but here are 2 simple
programs that can be compared (I haven't added use strict...):

In Perl:

print fib(35);

sub fib {
my $n = shift;
return $n if $n < 2;
fib($n-1) + fib($n-2);
}

In Python:

def fib(n):
if n < 2: return n
return fib(n-1) + fib(n-2)

print fib(35)

The compilation of this small program doesn't take too much anyway, but on
my computer the Perl code above runs ~ 14 seconds and the Python code runs ~
7 seconds which is a big difference.

Yes I know that we can use Memoize to speed it up but this is an
optimization that can be made to the Python code too.

> OR> - Python is used by Google for their dynamic pages and the creator of
> OR> Python is employed by Google and this is a good promotion.
>
> so what? amazon uses perl a ton. that is very specious and useless.

I doubt that most of the software companies that may offer employment
opportunities know that Amazon uses Perl. But it is obviously that Google
uses Python because w can see the .py extension on his web sites.

> OR> With other words, I think that Perl is better than Python for web
> OR> programming and system administration and Python is better for
> desktop
> OR> apps and for newer technologies.
>
> again, bogus logic.

Why? I have told you why Python is better for. Do you think that Perl has
only advantages and absolutely no disadvantage?

> OR> Perl is better if you live in an area where there are already a large
> OR> base of Perl programs that need to be maintained and Python is
> OR> prefered by younger programmers because it is much cleaner (and
> OR> because the young programmers need a job, and the jobs are offered by
> OR> software companies that like the language they use to be as standard
> OR> as possible).
>
> live?? what does where you live have to do with a language?

It has to do because in my country almost nobody uses Perl. There are just a
few companies that use Perl, but most of them do outsourcing for other
companies from USA, Western Europe and Australia.
And a language which is the best but not required on the labour market has
very small value because the programmers usually need to live with the money
they earn.
Python is not used very much either because in my country only PHP, Java and
DotNet and maybe a little C/C++ are asked, however all the new programmers I
have talked about here are very impressed about Python but consider Perl a
language dead much time ago, so the future is not very bright for those who
want to live by programming in Perl, and this is a disadvantage.

> OR> The core language of Python is standard more because of its syntax,
> OR> because otherwise, in some cases there are much too many ways to do
> OR> some things in Python also, so the thing that "there is only one way
> OR> to do it" in Python is not exactly true.
>
> and that means less creativity as well. you don't understand coding if
> you think restrictions are good.

It doesn't matter what I think. I like Perl much more than Python because it
is more flexible, and as I said, because it is really better for web
programming, the field I am mostly interested in, but it is very normal that
the software companies prefer those standards (yes, standards are
restrictions) because they like to be able to change the programmers very
easy and to find as many programmers for the wanted language as possible...
which is not the case of Perl, at least in my country.

> this is typical of this sort of thread. misinformation, rumors,
> unfounded biases, etc. the whole topic is useless. use whatever
> languague you like best. if you want different jobs learn different
> languages. comparing langs like this is a silly and wasteful exercise.

I have compared the speed of 2 similar programs and the speed of the one
made in Python was double than the speed of the one in Perl.
All WxPerl programmers know how poor is the documentation of WxPerl compared
with the one for WxPython.
Even some mailing lists for Perl use Mailman which is written in Python
although there is a mailing list manager written in Perl, there are at least
2 well known source control programs written in Python (Mercurial and
Bazaar) and none in Perl (because SVK was abandoned), 2 screen readers made
in Python and none in Perl, even some Linux distributions started to create
the administrative tools in Python, Python can be used to create apps for
Symbian while Symbianperl was started but kind of adandoned, there are 4
more downloaders of Python for Android than of Perl for Android, and all
these things are not rumors.

And there is no bias here because I like much more Perl and I know it much
better and it is better than Python for creating web apps as I said, but it
is not the best for everything.

Octavian


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>>>>> "OR" == Octavian Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com> writes:

OR> From: "Uri Guttman" <uri [at] StemSystems.com>>>>>>> "OR" == Octavian
OR> Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com> writes:
OR> Disadvantages:
OR> - Python is prefered by software companies, because it enforce a
OR> single style of programming, not the "there is more than one
>> way to do
OR> it" style.
>>
>> preferred? plenty of companies prefer perl.

OR> Not in my country, so this is not generally true.

so that doesn't make it a blanket statement.


OR> Perl compiles to bytecode but it doesn't save the compiled file,
OR> so in non-persistent programs like FastCGI or mod_perl the
OR> programs must be compiled again and again. Python saves the
OR> compiled bytecode of its modules automaticly and if the next time
OR> the program runs, the compiled bytecode is ran without needing to
OR> compile the code again.

so? that is only startup time and in any daemon/server situation it
doesn't matter. runtime matters then and saved bytecode doesn't affect
that.

OR> Python may not be faster than Perl in all cases, but here are 2 simple
OR> programs that can be compared (I haven't added use strict...):

OR> In Perl:

OR> print fib(35);

OR> sub fib {
OR> my $n = shift;
OR> return $n if $n < 2;
OR> fib($n-1) + fib($n-2);
OR> }

OR> In Python:

OR> def fib(n):
OR> if n < 2: return n
OR> return fib(n-1) + fib(n-2)

OR> print fib(35)

OR> The compilation of this small program doesn't take too much anyway,
OR> but on my computer the Perl code above runs ~ 14 seconds and the
OR> Python code runs ~ 7 seconds which is a big difference.

so? that is a lousy example with a very small sample size. also
recursion is not a good way to benchmark languages.

OR> Yes I know that we can use Memoize to speed it up but this is an
OR> optimization that can be made to the Python code too.

memoize on fibbinacci?? hahah.


OR> - Python is used by Google for their dynamic pages and the creator of
OR> Python is employed by Google and this is a good promotion.
>>
>> so what? amazon uses perl a ton. that is very specious and useless.

OR> I doubt that most of the software companies that may offer employment
OR> opportunities know that Amazon uses Perl. But it is obviously that
OR> Google uses Python because w can see the .py extension on his web
OR> sites.

huh?? amazon offers employment opportunties and so does imdb (which is
all perl!).

OR> With other words, I think that Perl is better than Python for web
OR> programming and system administration and Python is better for
>> desktop
OR> apps and for newer technologies.
>>
>> again, bogus logic.

OR> Why? I have told you why Python is better for. Do you think that Perl
OR> has only advantages and absolutely no disadvantage?

no. but your arguments have little to back them. this is a useless
thread and i am out.

OR> Perl is better if you live in an area where there are already a large
OR> base of Perl programs that need to be maintained and Python is
OR> prefered by younger programmers because it is much cleaner (and
OR> because the young programmers need a job, and the jobs are offered by
OR> software companies that like the language they use to be as standard
OR> as possible).
>>
>> live?? what does where you live have to do with a language?

OR> It has to do because in my country almost nobody uses Perl. There are
OR> just a few companies that use Perl, but most of them do outsourcing
OR> for other companies from USA, Western Europe and Australia.
OR> And a language which is the best but not required on the labour market
OR> has very small value because the programmers usually need to live with
OR> the money they earn.

move to a better country? get a telecommute job? contract all over the
world?


OR> And there is no bias here because I like much more Perl and I know it
OR> much better and it is better than Python for creating web apps as I
OR> said, but it is not the best for everything.

perl isn't good to replace assembler, drivers and kernels. not much else
it can't do if coded well. too much code in general sucks.

uri

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From: "Uri Guttman" <uri [at] StemSystems.com>>>>>>> "OR" == Octavian Rasnita
<orasnita [at] gmail.com> writes:
> OR> Perl compiles to bytecode but it doesn't save the compiled file,
> OR> so in non-persistent programs like FastCGI or mod_perl the
> OR> programs must be compiled again and again. Python saves the
> OR> compiled bytecode of its modules automaticly and if the next time
> OR> the program runs, the compiled bytecode is ran without needing to
> OR> compile the code again.
>
> so? that is only startup time and in any daemon/server situation it
> doesn't matter. runtime matters then and saved bytecode doesn't affect
> that.


Yes, but as I have said, this happends only in persistent environments, but
not all the programs run that way.

> OR> Python may not be faster than Perl in all cases, but here are 2
> simple
> OR> programs that can be compared (I haven't added use strict...):
>
> OR> In Perl:
>
> OR> print fib(35);
>
> OR> sub fib {
> OR> my $n = shift;
> OR> return $n if $n < 2;
> OR> fib($n-1) + fib($n-2);
> OR> }
>
> OR> In Python:
>
> OR> def fib(n):
> OR> if n < 2: return n
> OR> return fib(n-1) + fib(n-2)
>
> OR> print fib(35)
>
> OR> The compilation of this small program doesn't take too much anyway,
> OR> but on my computer the Perl code above runs ~ 14 seconds and the
> OR> Python code runs ~ 7 seconds which is a big difference.
>
> so? that is a lousy example with a very small sample size. also
> recursion is not a good way to benchmark languages.

Lousy lousy, but Python is faster and some programs might need recursion so
it is important which runs the same code faster.
I have already said that not all similar programs made in Perl are surely
slower, but this was just an example that shows that yes, Python can be
faster in some cases.

> OR> Yes I know that we can use Memoize to speed it up but this is an
> OR> optimization that can be made to the Python code too.
>
> memoize on fibbinacci?? hahah.

Yes. I have taken that Fibonacci subroutine exactly from Memoize's POD.

> OR> I doubt that most of the software companies that may offer employment
> OR> opportunities know that Amazon uses Perl. But it is obviously that
> OR> Google uses Python because w can see the .py extension on his web
> OR> sites.
>
> huh?? amazon offers employment opportunties and so does imdb (which is
> all perl!).

Amazon doesn't offer employment opportunities in all the countries of the
world. It should have been just an example to other software companies that
might be interested in Perl because they see that it is used very much.

> OR> With other words, I think that Perl is better than Python for web
> OR> programming and system administration and Python is better for
> >> desktop
> OR> apps and for newer technologies.
> >>
> >> again, bogus logic.
>
> OR> Why? I have told you why Python is better for. Do you think that Perl
> OR> has only advantages and absolutely no disadvantage?
>
> no. but your arguments have little to back them. this is a useless
> thread and i am out.

I have given you a lot of arguments but remember, not everyone lives in a
country where there are already many Perl projects to maintain and where
many companies know that Perl is good. Because Perl is very good, but it has
a very bad image and this is another disadvantage.

> OR> It has to do because in my country almost nobody uses Perl. There are
> OR> just a few companies that use Perl, but most of them do outsourcing
> OR> for other companies from USA, Western Europe and Australia.
> OR> And a language which is the best but not required on the labour
> market
> OR> has very small value because the programmers usually need to live
> with
> OR> the money they earn.
>
> move to a better country?

I can't do it because I have some health problems.

> get a telecommute job?

All the companies from USA and UK that offer jobs as a Perl programmer
require to be USA/UK resident and to have work permit. I haven't seen any
offer for telecommute job. Maybe only those on some sites like vworker (ex
rentacoder) for just a few bucks.

> OR> And there is no bias here because I like much more Perl and I know it
> OR> much better and it is better than Python for creating web apps as I
> OR> said, but it is not the best for everything.
>
> perl isn't good to replace assembler, drivers and kernels. not much else
> it can't do if coded well. too much code in general sucks.

Agree but it is used less and less and Python and Ruby more and more and it
doesn't matter how good it is if a job is hard to find and if... as you
recommended, you need to move in another country to get a job.

If you already have a stable job as a Perl programmer, or if you are living
in a rich country, you are biased because in that case yes, Perl doesn't hae
so many disadvantages.

But for a person that is living in a poor country where almost nobody uses
Perl... it doesn't matter if that person likes Perl more than other
languages, it doesn't matter that Perl is better, because he might find that
other languages have the advantage that are needed on the labour market,
while for Perl is not the case.

Octavian



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>>>>> "OR" == Octavian Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com> writes:

>> memoize on fibbinacci?? hahah.

OR> Yes. I have taken that Fibonacci subroutine exactly from Memoize's POD.

i was being sarcastic. fib is the last function in the world you would
memoize. it has a faster linear solution. the point is recursion is a
lousy benchmark.

>> get a telecommute job?

OR> All the companies from USA and UK that offer jobs as a Perl programmer
OR> require to be USA/UK resident and to have work permit. I haven't seen
OR> any offer for telecommute job. Maybe only those on some sites like
OR> vworker (ex rentacoder) for just a few bucks.

that is totally wrong. i know the perl job market very well. i created
the perl jobs mailing list (which morphed into jobs.perl.org. you don't
know what you are talking about here.

OR> Agree but it is used less and less and Python and Ruby more and more
OR> and it doesn't matter how good it is if a job is hard to find and
OR> if... as you recommended, you need to move in another country to get a
OR> job.

you are wrong there as well.

uri

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Hi all,

I think its time the real beauty of perl from the origin is restored.
Although am not a programmer per see but I used only perl and bash for
whatever I need in programming.
I think all the so called disadvantages today could be ported to perl
from other languages as Rasnita had raised, this used to be the perl
advantages that I know getting good features from other languages.
What are those things required to be a perl developer, I know you will
get me links/urls but summary on this thread will help.
I know only perl and I get my life going when required bcos my little
skill get me going, thanks to "TIMTOADY", you don't need to read many
chapters to start working your perl scripts up.
Anyway, the 5.12 upward is becoming more and more interesting, those
I still regard to some standardisation like moose as restriction, but
its good to attract pple from other languages. Perl community need
publicity andf more open source codes and modules portable ms windows
will help, client based project is gui will help too.

Thanks

On 1/5/11, Uri Guttman <uri [at] stemsystems.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "OR" == Octavian Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> memoize on fibbinacci?? hahah.
>
> OR> Yes. I have taken that Fibonacci subroutine exactly from Memoize's
> POD.
>
> i was being sarcastic. fib is the last function in the world you would
> memoize. it has a faster linear solution. the point is recursion is a
> lousy benchmark.
>
> >> get a telecommute job?
>
> OR> All the companies from USA and UK that offer jobs as a Perl programmer
> OR> require to be USA/UK resident and to have work permit. I haven't seen
> OR> any offer for telecommute job. Maybe only those on some sites like
> OR> vworker (ex rentacoder) for just a few bucks.
>
> that is totally wrong. i know the perl job market very well. i created
> the perl jobs mailing list (which morphed into jobs.perl.org. you don't
> know what you are talking about here.
>
> OR> Agree but it is used less and less and Python and Ruby more and more
> OR> and it doesn't matter how good it is if a job is hard to find and
> OR> if... as you recommended, you need to move in another country to get a
> OR> job.
>
> you are wrong there as well.
>
> uri
>
> --
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> --
> ----- Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support
> ------
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>
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>
>
>

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Hi Peter

Please check my answers down .

Thanks
Sunita

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Scott [mailto:Peter [at] PSDT.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 1:16 PM
To: beginners [at] perl.org
Subject: Re: advangtes of Perl on various languages

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:42:28 +0530, Sunita Rani Pradhan wrote:
> I would like to know answers of following questions :
>
> - What all advantages Perl has on top of other scripting languages
like
> Python , shell , Java ?
>
> - What is the career growth, road map in Perl programming ?

These questions are more of a Rohrshach test for the reader than
anything
else. Without any idea of what goal you are trying to satisfy any
answer
is essentially useless. It is like the old saw that a recession is when

the other guy is out of work and a depression is when you are out of
work:
aggregate statistics--and industry trends--are of very little importance

compared to your personal priorities.

If you want a language with a large install base, learn COBOL. If you
want cool IDEs, learn Java. Me, I don't care whether there's more money

in Java, it wouldn't be enough for me. And if money's the top priority,

become a lawyer.

So I can't see any answers to those questions being of use unless you
tell
us why you want to know. Are they an assignment for a term paper? Are
you writing a trade magazine article? Or something else? If you're
asking in regard to your own career path then we'd need to know a lot
more
about what your priorities and background are.

>>> This is a good question .I am asking for my own career growth . I
work as a automation engineer . I used to be in manual testing and moved
to automation just been 1.5yr.
--
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--001636e90217da22ae04992682b6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Sunita Rani Pradhan <
Sunita.Pradhan [at] altair.com> wrote:

> Hi All
>
>
>
> I would like to know answers of following questions :
>
>
>
> - What all advantages Perl has on top of other scripting languages like
> Python , shell , Java ?
>
>
>
> - What is the career growth, road map in Perl programming ?
>
>
>
> I am not sure , if this questions are right for this group mail or not ,
> just asked . If it is not , please let me know which group can answer
> these .
>
>
This is a typical troll topic. You wont get unbiased accurate answers here
, because there arent any. But in general, in India ,Java programmers are
more in demand. Even a not-so-bright java guys earns more than a bright perl
guy. ( But then how long will you be doing actual coding ? )


In my opinion
There are areas or strength of every language. It will be ideal if you , and
the company you are in can mix different languages. For example if I have to
write a mime-parser I would choose perl.
If I have to write an index search tool I would use java , just because
lucene is best implemented in java.

--001636e90217da22ae04992682b6--

From: "Goke Aruna" <myklass [at] gmail.com>
> Hi all,
>
> I think its time the real beauty of perl from the origin is restored.
> Although am not a programmer per see but I used only perl and bash for
> whatever I need in programming.
> I think all the so called disadvantages today could be ported to perl
> from other languages as Rasnita had raised, this used to be the perl
> advantages that I know getting good features from other languages.


Of course they can be ported, but for the moment many of them are not, and
the Perl community is not so interested in Windows OS, although it is the
most used OS and the OS used by the most businesses. Perl doesn't have a
great support for newer technologies but there are old and standard
technologies which are not covered by Perl.

For example, I was searching a few days ago to see if Perl has support for
the FIX protocol (Financial Information Exchange), the protocol used by
brokerage companies for a very long time all over the world, but I could
find only Finance::FIX which is just a useless 2 KB file and another module
much bigger but which says in the POD documentation that is incomplete and
that the next version won't be backward compatible probably.
Of course, there are many libraries available for C/C++, Java and DotNet,
but there are also even for Python and Ruby.

I am also programming only in Perl, but I can't say that Perl has only
advantages and absolutely any disadvantage when I see that other languages
have a much better support in some fields.


> Anyway, the 5.12 upward is becoming more and more interesting, those
> I still regard to some standardisation like moose as restriction, but
> its good to attract pple from other languages. Perl community need
> publicity andf more open source codes and modules portable ms windows
> will help, client based project is gui will help too.


Yes that's true. A few days ago I just wrote on the python-list mailing list
that I consider Perl better than Python and PHP for web programming because
that thing is true. Nobody said that this is not true (for the moment:)
However, if a language is better than another but is used less and less and
it has a bad image, and the language which is not so good is used more and
more and has a better image and attracts more new programmers, on the long
term that language will be improved faster and it will become much better.

There are reasons why more and more programmers prefer now Python and even
Ruby and those programmers probably don't prefer Perl because they see some
disadvantages in it, don't you think so?

Octavian


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On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 1:33 AM, Octavian Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> the Perl community is not so interested in Windows OS, although it is the
> most used OS and the OS used by the most businesses.

That's sort of flame bait. :\ I'll try not to preach. :P It /might/ be
true that more businesses use Windows operating systems than
alternatives operating systems, that isn't a very relevant metric to
consider anyway. To me, Perl seems like an exceptional tool for system
tools, Web programming, quick hacks and things of that nature. In
those areas, I think that it's fair to say that unices are generally
much more popular (I'd say superior, but that's my opinion). I
wouldn't want to be stuck with a Windows OS for any of those things,
but I'll withhold my reasoning.

> However, if a language is better than another but is used less and less and
> it has a bad image, and the language which is not so good is used more and
> more and has a better image and attracts more new programmers, on the long
> term that language will be improved faster and it will become much better.

I've never heard of Perl having a bad overall image. Quite the
contrary. C is still a vastly popular language, but there are
countless people and groups that will label it dead and obsolete. They
wouldn't be talking about it if it didn't matter. :P Everybody is
entitled to their opinion and everybody experiences life a little bit
differently. I think that Perl is still a vastly popular language and
I don't foresee that changing anytime soon. Like all software, it
always comes down to "right tool for the job", and Perl is the right
tool for a lot of jobs.

> There are reasons why more and more programmers prefer now Python and even
> Ruby and those programmers probably don't prefer Perl because they see some
> disadvantages in it, don't you think so?

More than likely, they prefer Python and/or Ruby either out of
personal preference (we don't all think alike) or experience and for
many because they haven't actually used Perl. The impression that I've
gotten is that Perl is an intimidating language to many (it's similar
to C in that respect). People often form strong opinions about things
that they know nothing about, especially when they're influenced by
fear or other similar emotions. They're entitled to believe what they
believe. Even if nobody else was using Perl I'd still want to keep it
in my toolbox.

In any case, once you've learned one programming language it's
generally much easier to learn others, so one shouldn't worry too much
about which one to learn and just learn one. There is no one
programming language that is best at everything. The OP's seeking
answers that simply don't exist without well defined parameters.

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From: "Brandon McCaig" <bamccaig [at] gmail.com>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 1:33 AM, Octavian Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> the Perl community is not so interested in Windows OS, although it is the
>> most used OS and the OS used by the most businesses.
>
> That's sort of flame bait. :\ I'll try not to preach. :P It /might/ be
> true that more businesses use Windows operating systems than
> alternatives operating systems, that isn't a very relevant metric to
> consider anyway. To me, Perl seems like an exceptional tool for system
> tools, Web programming, quick hacks and things of that nature. In
> those areas, I think that it's fair to say that unices are generally
> much more popular (I'd say superior, but that's my opinion). I
> wouldn't want to be stuck with a Windows OS for any of those things,
> but I'll withhold my reasoning.

Unixes are far superior for *hosting* web applications indeed, but they are
not as good as Windows for using them as desktop apps, and a programmer is a
desktop user also so it is important if Perl doesn't have the same tools for
this OS like other languages.
I did say that I consider Perl the best for web programming already, but if
it is not the best language for Windows this doesn't mean that we shouldn't
say this.

>> However, if a language is better than another but is used less and less
>> and
>> it has a bad image, and the language which is not so good is used more
>> and
>> more and has a better image and attracts more new programmers, on the
>> long
>> term that language will be improved faster and it will become much
>> better.
>
> I've never heard of Perl having a bad overall image. Quite the
> contrary. C is still a vastly popular language, but there are
> countless people and groups that will label it dead and obsolete. They
> wouldn't be talking about it if it didn't matter. :P Everybody is
> entitled to their opinion and everybody experiences life a little bit
> differently. I think that Perl is still a vastly popular language and
> I don't foresee that changing anytime soon. Like all software, it
> always comes down to "right tool for the job", and Perl is the right
> tool for a lot of jobs.

Of course and I have already told for things for which Perl is the best. But
I also think that Perl is the best for *a lot of jobs*, and not for
absolutely everything.


>> There are reasons why more and more programmers prefer now Python and
>> even
>> Ruby and those programmers probably don't prefer Perl because they see
>> some
>> disadvantages in it, don't you think so?
>
> More than likely, they prefer Python and/or Ruby either out of
> personal preference (we don't all think alike) or experience and for
> many because they haven't actually used Perl. The impression that I've
> gotten is that Perl is an intimidating language to many (it's similar
> to C in that respect).

If Perl is intimidating I think that this is a disadvantage.

> People often form strong opinions about things
> that they know nothing about, especially when they're influenced by
> fear or other similar emotions. They're entitled to believe what they
> believe. Even if nobody else was using Perl I'd still want to keep it
> in my toolbox.

If the majority uses Windows it doesn't mean that Windows is the best OS and
if the majority uses PHP it doesn't mean that PHP is the best programming
language.
But it does mean that they do have some advantages that other operating
systems or programming languages don't have.
Why should we fear to also admit those points in which other languages are
better than Perl?
We already use C in Perl modules, admiting that C is faster and we also use
TCL-based libs for creating GUIS in Perl because Perl is not very good for
generating graphics/sound/video.
And this is not a problem at all if we admit this by just using that
software. Is it bad if we also speak about it?

> In any case, once you've learned one programming language it's
> generally much easier to learn others, so one shouldn't worry too much
> about which one to learn and just learn one. There is no one
> programming language that is best at everything. The OP's seeking
> answers that simply don't exist without well defined parameters.

Well, my opinion is that this is not exactly true. Learning core Perl is not
very hard. It is pretty easy. But it is more hard to learn high level
libraries like DBIx::Class, Moose, POE and others, and these things are
different for other languages (if they have similar libs).

Octavian


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On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:32:31 +0530, Sunita Rani Pradhan wrote:
>>>> This is a good question .I am asking for my own career growth . I
> work as a automation engineer . I used to be in manual testing and moved
> to automation just been 1.5yr.

What does an automation engineer do, and what industry are you in or want
to be in? Are you programming embedded devices or microcontrollers? In
the video game business or financial services? Are you doing industrial
process monitoring, educational software, mobile phone applications, CAD/
CAM, or engineering documentation library interfaces? All of those
possibilities and more would have radically different answers and you
have not provided any information to differentiate between them.

--
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http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/
http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=0137001274
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On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Octavian Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> If Perl is intimidating I think that this is a disadvantage.

Some people are easily intimidated. It was that kind of thinking that
unleashed /Visual Basic/ upon the world. :(


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From: "Brandon McCaig" <bamccaig [at] gmail.com>

> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Octavian Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com> =
wrote:
>> If Perl is intimidating I think that this is a disadvantage.
>
> Some people are easily intimidated. It was that kind of thinking that
> unleashed /Visual Basic/ upon the world. :(

:-)

Very true.
But not the current Perl we want to promote is so intimidating as that =
large pile of old Perl code that can be found on the net.

If you'll search for "perl mailer" with Google for example, instead of =
finding the pages with the POD documentation on CPAN for the best Perl =
modules that can be used for sending email, the newbies that don't know =
about CPAN yet will find very many old Perl CGI scripts with bad =
recommendations. And even though they are newbies, they will notice that =
those .cgi extensions are not prevalent on the web anymore for a long =
time, so they will associate Perl with that .cgi extension that was very =
popular many years ago thinking that yes, Perl is a very obsolete =
language.

After a certain time the same thing will probably happen to Python and =
Ruby also if they will have the success Perl had... who knows.

Octavian


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Octavian,

For what it's worth, I thought you've done very well with this crowd
and that your first and subsequent posts on this topic was balanced
and fair. But it seems this crowd was biased toward Perl, so even
being fair is hard. A mailing list of users who use Perl and who read
job boards directed at Perl developers...well, the general response is
somewhat expected. ;-)

No doubt the OP realized this and is probably posting on other
languages' mailing list, too... :-D


On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 22:45, Octavian Rasnita <orasnita [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> From: "Brandon McCaig" <bamccaig [at] gmail.com>
> Unixes are far superior for *hosting* web applications indeed, but they are
> not as good as Windows for using them as desktop apps, and a programmer is a
> desktop user also so it is important if Perl doesn't have the same tools for
> this OS like other languages.
> I did say that I consider Perl the best for web programming already, but if
> it is not the best language for Windows this doesn't mean that we shouldn't
> say this.


Yes -- as much we hate to admit, Windows does have a larger market
share and while most people probably don't program, the ones that do
probably use something else other than Perl. Some of the programmers
might use cygwin + gcc, but I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft
Visual Studio is favored by companies and that they would use a
language like C++, Java, etc. (though Perl is supported).


>> I've never heard of Perl having a bad overall image. Quite the
>> contrary. C is still a vastly popular language, but there are
>> countless people and groups that will label it dead and obsolete. They
>> wouldn't be talking about it if it didn't matter. :P Everybody is
>> entitled to their opinion and everybody experiences life a little bit
>> differently. I think that Perl is still a vastly popular language and
>> I don't foresee that changing anytime soon. Like all software, it
>> always comes down to "right tool for the job", and Perl is the right
>> tool for a lot of jobs.


Brandon -- Well, if C becomes dead and obsolete, then we have a
problem -- isn't Perl implemented using C? :-)

I use C more than Perl in my work and I definitely don't think it is
obsolete. As Perl came after C, then one can argue that Perl aimed to
improve on some aspects of C. But if this argument is true, then the
fact that Python and Ruby came after Perl would make us wonder if they
somehow improved on Perl? Then there's the upcoming Perl6... It's
all a horse race between languages, with each language influencing the
development of others... That's a win-win for all of us, even if
you're just using Perl.


>> More than likely, they prefer Python and/or Ruby either out of
>> personal preference (we don't all think alike) or experience and for
>> many because they haven't actually used Perl. The impression that I've
>> gotten is that Perl is an intimidating language to many (it's similar
>> to C in that respect).


Brandon again (sorry, maybe should have written two replies) -- I was
going to avoid this thread but while working today, I was reading
another program's documentation and they gave a script to run their
program in Python. That's when I realized that the recent program
documentations I've seen make more references to Python than any other
scripting language. I don't know why.

As someone else observed about India, being in Japan, I think Ruby is
mentioned / seen more often than I'm comfortable with (since I don't
know Ruby :-) ). This obviously has to do with Ruby being developed
in Japan. So, country does play a part.

I think the language that is taught in universities also affects what
fresh graduates will prefer when then enter a company. This is the
basis of Microsoft's, etc. use of academic pricing...their hope that
after graduation, people will continue using their software by paying
full price. Guess it works...


>> In any case, once you've learned one programming language it's
>> generally much easier to learn others, so one shouldn't worry too much
>> about which one to learn and just learn one. There is no one
>> programming language that is best at everything. The OP's seeking
>> answers that simply don't exist without well defined parameters.
>
> Well, my opinion is that this is not exactly true. Learning core Perl is not
> very hard. It is pretty easy. But it is more hard to learn high level
> libraries like DBIx::Class, Moose, POE and others, and these things are
> different for other languages (if they have similar libs).


Yes, you are right. Another problem is if you use Perl extensively
and switch to (say) C, then you might program in C like a Perl
programmer. i.e., you keep forgetting to assign a data type to each
variable. It takes some times to be equally good at more than one
language; likewise, it takes a lot of time to be good at more than one
natural/spoken language.

Ray

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2011/1/6 Raymond Wan <r.wan [at] aist.go.jp>:
>
>
> Brandon again (sorry, maybe should have written two replies) -- I was
> going to avoid this thread but while working today, I was reading
> another program's documentation and they gave a script to run their
> program in Python. =C2=A0That's when I realized that the recent program
> documentations I've seen make more references to Python than any other
> scripting language. =C2=A0I don't know why.
>
> As someone else observed about India, being in Japan, I think Ruby is
> mentioned / seen more often than I'm comfortable with (since I don't
> know Ruby :-) ). =C2=A0This obviously has to do with Ruby being developed
> in Japan. =C2=A0So, country does play a part.
>

Many young people here in China do think Perl is too old to learn.
For work languages, they prefer Java/C/PHP etc.
For a second script language, they prefer more Python/Ruby than Perl.
I also don't know why, but it's the real case.

Regards.

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On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Raymond Wan <r.wan [at] aist.go.jp> wrote:
> I use C more than Perl in my work and I definitely don't think it is
> obsolete.

I never said it was. ;) C still has very many important roles and I
wouldn't have it any other way. xD There were a lot of other people in
college that were terrified of C++ though (probably the majority of
the class), even before we were introduced to the classes and
inheritance and polymorphism, etc (so it was basically C). :P

>=C2=A0As Perl came after C, then one can argue that Perl aimed to
> improve on some aspects of C. =C2=A0But if this argument is true, then th=
e
> fact that Python and Ruby came after Perl would make us wonder if they
> somehow improved on Perl? =C2=A0Then there's the upcoming Perl6... =C2=A0=
It's
> all a horse race between languages, with each language influencing the
> development of others... =C2=A0That's a win-win for all of us, even if
> you're just using Perl.

While all of that is true, not all languages are designed with the
same work in mind. C is great for system programming and expensive
games. It's best for software that doesn't change rapidly because C
isn't very agile or programs that get used a LOT because C programs
run fast and less time is wasted that way. Perl's main strength seems
to be text processing. In that sense, it's obviously an improvement on
C. xD However, it does run considerably slower, which does matter for
/some/ programs. The designers of each language generally have an idea
of what improvements they want to make to other languages, and they're
generally based on personal experience, which is biased by what kinds
of programs the designers write the most of. I think that's why
there's no one language to learn. While Perl probably was influenced
by C, and Python probably was influenced by Perl, Perl doesn't
necessarily solve all of the problems that C can [as well], and Python
doesn't necessarily solve all of the problems that Perl can [as well].
Again, it comes down to right tool for the job. :)

> Brandon again (sorry, maybe should have written two replies) -- I was
> going to avoid this thread but while working today, I was reading
> another program's documentation and they gave a script to run their
> program in Python. =C2=A0That's when I realized that the recent program
> documentations I've seen make more references to Python than any other
> scripting language. =C2=A0I don't know why.

Python is a popular language, but so is Perl. It makes sense that
you'll encounter both. Often, I think that we don't even realize when
we're running one or another. Our system doesn't need us to know what
kind of software we're running. As long as it knows how to run it the
program just works and we can't differentiate between a native program
(unless we actually investigate). I find myself occasionally doing
things like:

$ file `which program`

To see if that program is a script, and which language it is. Matter
of fact, I'm getting an evil idea:

[bamccaig [at] krypton ~]$ perl=3D0 python=3D0 ruby=3D0; \
> \
> for f in /bin/* /usr/bin/*; do
> for l in perl python ruby; do
> file $f 2>/dev/null | grep -i $l &>/dev/null && ((`echo $l`++));
> done;
> done ; echo "Perl: $perl Python: $python Ruby: $ruby";
Perl: 156 Python: 94 Ruby: 5

(I failed to write that in Perl; File::Type wasn't playing nice, and
the bash ended up a lot shorter too)

According to that simple (imperfect) script there are approximately
50% more Perl programs (in /usr and /usr/bin) on my system than there
are Python and Ruby programs /combined/. Of course, there are
unrelated reasons for that. I play with Perl, but really don't with
Python and Ruby, so there are a number of programs installed for Perl
development and such, many of which are quite likely written in Perl
themselves. I only recently installed ruby, and since it wasn't
installed before, obviously there weren't a lot of programs written in
it (which by itself says that Ruby isn't /that/ popular in the niche
of system tools, even if it is gaining ground). There are probably
also other variables that make these results nearly meaningless, but I
think it's fair to say that Perl isn't going anywhere. :P I would be
more interested in the results of that command-line on a fresh Linux
distro install (without customizing the packages at all). It might
even be fun to compare the results from Fedora, Debian, and Gentoo.
\o/


--
Brandon McCaig <http://www.bamccaig.com> <bamccaig [at] gmail.com>
V zrna gur orfg jvgu jung V fnl. Vg qbrfa'g nyjnlf fbhaq gung jnl.
Castopulence Software <http://www.castopulence.org/> <bamccaig [at] castopulence=
..org>

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Hi Brandon,


On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 01:53, Brandon McCaig <bamccaig [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Raymond Wan <r.wan [at] aist.go.jp> wrote:
> I never said it was. ;) C still has very many important roles and I
> wouldn't have it any other way. xD There were a lot of other people in
> college that were terrified of C++ though (probably the majority of
> the class), even before we were introduced to the classes and
> inheritance and polymorphism, etc (so it was basically C). :P


Well, students terrified of C++ are usually that way because it is
their first exposure to programming. If you use templates, the pages
of error messages for one typo is enough to make most students throw
their keyboards out the window... Even now, I need to restrain myself
-- can't sacrifice too many keyboards!

....
> run fast and less time is wasted that way. Perl's main strength seems
> to be text processing. In that sense, it's obviously an improvement on
> C. xD However, it does run considerably slower, which does matter for
....


All true. So, the question comes down to what people want to do and
not which language is best. Not everyone wants to process text, such
as what you would see in an Apache log file.

In fact, the impact of Perl on bioinformatics has been stated many
times by others on this list; yet not all bioinformatics is DNA
sequence data so to generalize that Perl is good for bioinformatics is
perhaps not correct, either.


>> Brandon again (sorry, maybe should have written two replies) -- I was
>> going to avoid this thread but while working today, I was reading
>> another program's documentation and they gave a script to run their
>> program in Python. =C2=A0That's when I realized that the recent program
>> documentations I've seen make more references to Python than any other
>> scripting language. =C2=A0I don't know why.
>
> Python is a popular language, but so is Perl. It makes sense that
> you'll encounter both. Often, I think that we don't even realize when
> we're running one or another. Our system doesn't need us to know what


Yes, you are right. But all I meant in what I said is that the
wrapper programs distributed with the software tools that I've looked
at (let's say, the last 4-5) have all [for some reason] chosen to use
Python. Of course, this isn't a random sample and it's not even a
large sample at that -- just an observation I realized when coming
across this thread.

As I don't know Python (and Ruby), it's not like I'm happy with that. :-)


> To see if that program is a script, and which language it is. Matter
> of fact, I'm getting an evil idea:
>
> [bamccaig [at] krypton ~]$ perl=3D0 python=3D0 ruby=3D0; \
>> \
>> for f in /bin/* /usr/bin/*; do
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for l in perl python ruby; do
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 file $f 2>/dev/null | grep -i $l &>/dev/null=
&& ((`echo $l`++));
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 done;
>> done ; echo "Perl: $perl =C2=A0 =C2=A0Python: $python =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ruby:=
$ruby";
> Perl: 156 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Python: 94 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ruby: 5
....
> think it's fair to say that Perl isn't going anywhere. :P I would be
> more interested in the results of that command-line on a fresh Linux
> distro install (without customizing the packages at all). It might
> even be fun to compare the results from Fedora, Debian, and Gentoo.
> \o/


Actually, I found this to be a very good idea. I think I can
contribute some numbers and I have access to a couple of Debian
versions. All different computers and all for different purposes (so
they will have different software installed) and the older ones are
used much less...but a fun thing to look at.

Debian 3.1 [2005]: Perl: 153 Python: 13 Ruby: 8
Debian 4.0 [2007]: Perl: 173 Python: 17 Ruby: 13
Debian 5.0.7 [2009]: Perl: 121 Python: 28 Ruby: 0
Debian 6.0 [testing -- 2011?]: Perl: 342 Python: 166 Ruby: 14

So, like what you reported, Perl is definitely more popular in terms
of system tools. Python is catching up. Actually, very quickly IMHO
in the last 2 years. Ruby's at a distant third.

This of course doesn't contradict what I said earlier; the 4-5
software weren't system tools and weren't part of Debian. In fact,
they were just program wrappers, which honestly I would think bash
would be more suited...but guess that's changing?

Ray

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