Greetings, Jerry Stuckle.
In reply to Your message dated Friday, March 14, 2008, 05:24:43,

>> is it possible to control css with php

> Sure. CSS can be generated with PHP, just like HTML can.

> The main question being - why?

In example, You have 3 browsers (Regular desktop, Mobile client (GPRS-WAP and
the like), specialized in-application browser) what should render the same
page without loosing of readability. Yes, You can send different CSS for every
single one, but maintaining 3 different files isn't easy, if they are so
close and You need to make changes in them all if something goes to change.
Much simpler to have PHP script that acting to serve CSS template and adapt it
to every browser. Even then, with server-side caching it's very fast process,
and with proper headers it will be cached on the client side too.


--
Sincerely Yours, AnrDaemon <anrdaemon [at] freemail.ru>

AnrDaemon wrote:
> Greetings, Jerry Stuckle.
> In reply to Your message dated Friday, March 14, 2008, 05:24:43,
>
>>> is it possible to control css with php
>
>> Sure. CSS can be generated with PHP, just like HTML can.
>
>> The main question being - why?
>
> In example, You have 3 browsers (Regular desktop, Mobile client (GPRS-WAP and
> the like), specialized in-application browser) what should render the same
> page without loosing of readability. Yes, You can send different CSS for every
> single one, but maintaining 3 different files isn't easy, if they are so
> close and You need to make changes in them all if something goes to change.
> Much simpler to have PHP script that acting to serve CSS template and adapt it
> to every browser. Even then, with server-side caching it's very fast process,
> and with proper headers it will be cached on the client side too.
>
>

And even simpler is to have valid CSS which works in all browsers. Then
you don't need hacks like you are promoting.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex [at] attglobal.net
==================

Greetings, Jerry Stuckle.
In reply to Your message dated Thursday, April 3, 2008, 08:44:00,

>>>> is it possible to control css with php
>>
>>> Sure. CSS can be generated with PHP, just like HTML can.
>>
>>> The main question being - why?
>>
>> In example, You have 3 browsers (Regular desktop, Mobile client (GPRS-WAP and
>> the like), specialized in-application browser) what should render the same
>> page without loosing of readability. Yes, You can send different CSS for every
>> single one, but maintaining 3 different files isn't easy, if they are so
>> close and You need to make changes in them all if something goes to change.
>> Much simpler to have PHP script that acting to serve CSS template and adapt it
>> to every browser. Even then, with server-side caching it's very fast process,
>> and with proper headers it will be cached on the client side too.

> And even simpler is to have valid CSS which works in all browsers.

Yes, create a page "Hello, World!" and be happy with it!
Sorry but I need real pages, not dummy examples.

> Then you don't need hacks like you are promoting.

Your words just showing a complete lacks of knowledge in specified situation.
Figure out Yourself, why...


--
Sincerely Yours, AnrDaemon <anrdaemon [at] freemail.ru>

AnrDaemon wrote:
> Greetings, Jerry Stuckle.
> In reply to Your message dated Thursday, April 3, 2008, 08:44:00,
>
>>>>> is it possible to control css with php
>>>> Sure. CSS can be generated with PHP, just like HTML can.
>>>> The main question being - why?
>>> In example, You have 3 browsers (Regular desktop, Mobile client (GPRS-WAP and
>>> the like), specialized in-application browser) what should render the same
>>> page without loosing of readability. Yes, You can send different CSS for every
>>> single one, but maintaining 3 different files isn't easy, if they are so
>>> close and You need to make changes in them all if something goes to change.
>>> Much simpler to have PHP script that acting to serve CSS template and adapt it
>>> to every browser. Even then, with server-side caching it's very fast process,
>>> and with proper headers it will be cached on the client side too.
>
>> And even simpler is to have valid CSS which works in all browsers.
>
> Yes, create a page "Hello, World!" and be happy with it!
> Sorry but I need real pages, not dummy examples.
>
>> Then you don't need hacks like you are promoting.
>
> Your words just showing a complete lacks of knowledge in specified situation.
> Figure out Yourself, why...
>
>

Not at all. A lot of other webmasters I know also create very
complicated pages all the time which work in all browsers. But it
doesn't surprise me that you are incapable of doing it without your hacks.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex [at] attglobal.net
==================

Greetings, Jerry Stuckle.
In reply to Your message dated Thursday, April 3, 2008, 16:08:49,

>>>>>> is it possible to control css with php
>>>>> Sure. CSS can be generated with PHP, just like HTML can.
>>>>> The main question being - why?
>>>> In example, You have 3 browsers (Regular desktop, Mobile client (GPRS-WAP and
>>>> the like), specialized in-application browser) what should render the same
>>>> page without loosing of readability. Yes, You can send different CSS for every
>>>> single one, but maintaining 3 different files isn't easy, if they are so
>>>> close and You need to make changes in them all if something goes to change.
>>>> Much simpler to have PHP script that acting to serve CSS template and adapt it
>>>> to every browser. Even then, with server-side caching it's very fast process,
>>>> and with proper headers it will be cached on the client side too.
>>
>>> And even simpler is to have valid CSS which works in all browsers.
>>
>> Yes, create a page "Hello, World!" and be happy with it!
>> Sorry but I need real pages, not dummy examples.
>>
>>> Then you don't need hacks like you are promoting.
>>
>> Your words just showing a complete lacks of knowledge in specified situation.
>> Figure out Yourself, why...

> Not at all. A lot of other webmasters I know also create very
> complicated pages all the time which work in all browsers. But it
> doesn't surprise me that you are incapable of doing it without your hacks.

It is good only if browser support that complicated CSS... Sorry Jerry, but
You're lost in Your ideal world. Sad thing is that, reality different from
Your expectations.


--
Sincerely Yours, AnrDaemon <anrdaemon [at] freemail.ru>

AnrDaemon wrote:
> Greetings, Jerry Stuckle.
> In reply to Your message dated Thursday, April 3, 2008, 16:08:49,
>
>>>>>>> is it possible to control css with php
>>>>>> Sure. CSS can be generated with PHP, just like HTML can.
>>>>>> The main question being - why?
>>>>> In example, You have 3 browsers (Regular desktop, Mobile client (GPRS-WAP and
>>>>> the like), specialized in-application browser) what should render the same
>>>>> page without loosing of readability. Yes, You can send different CSS for every
>>>>> single one, but maintaining 3 different files isn't easy, if they are so
>>>>> close and You need to make changes in them all if something goes to change.
>>>>> Much simpler to have PHP script that acting to serve CSS template and adapt it
>>>>> to every browser. Even then, with server-side caching it's very fast process,
>>>>> and with proper headers it will be cached on the client side too.
>>>> And even simpler is to have valid CSS which works in all browsers.
>>> Yes, create a page "Hello, World!" and be happy with it!
>>> Sorry but I need real pages, not dummy examples.
>>>
>>>> Then you don't need hacks like you are promoting.
>>> Your words just showing a complete lacks of knowledge in specified situation.
>>> Figure out Yourself, why...
>
>> Not at all. A lot of other webmasters I know also create very
>> complicated pages all the time which work in all browsers. But it
>> doesn't surprise me that you are incapable of doing it without your hacks.
>
> It is good only if browser support that complicated CSS... Sorry Jerry, but
> You're lost in Your ideal world. Sad thing is that, reality different from
> Your expectations.
>
>

Yea, anyone can hack together some CSS and make it work half-way. But
it takes a COMPETENT designer to create CSS which produces the desired
results without browser-specific hacks.

So again you show your level of competence.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex [at] attglobal.net
==================

Greetings, Jerry Stuckle.
In reply to Your message dated Monday, April 7, 2008, 17:01:35,

>>>>>>>> is it possible to control css with php
>>>>>>> Sure. CSS can be generated with PHP, just like HTML can.
>>>>>>> The main question being - why?
>>>>>> In example, You have 3 browsers (Regular desktop, Mobile client (GPRS-WAP and
>>>>>> the like), specialized in-application browser) what should render the same
>>>>>> page without loosing of readability. Yes, You can send different CSS for every
>>>>>> single one, but maintaining 3 different files isn't easy, if they are so
>>>>>> close and You need to make changes in them all if something goes to change.
>>>>>> Much simpler to have PHP script that acting to serve CSS template and adapt it
>>>>>> to every browser. Even then, with server-side caching it's very fast process,
>>>>>> and with proper headers it will be cached on the client side too.
>>>>> And even simpler is to have valid CSS which works in all browsers.
>>>> Yes, create a page "Hello, World!" and be happy with it!
>>>> Sorry but I need real pages, not dummy examples.
>>>>
>>>>> Then you don't need hacks like you are promoting.
>>>> Your words just showing a complete lacks of knowledge in specified situation.
>>>> Figure out Yourself, why...
>>
>>> Not at all. A lot of other webmasters I know also create very
>>> complicated pages all the time which work in all browsers. But it
>>> doesn't surprise me that you are incapable of doing it without your hacks.
>>
>> It is good only if browser support that complicated CSS... Sorry Jerry, but
>> You're lost in Your ideal world. Sad thing is that, reality different from
>> Your expectations.

> Yea, anyone can hack together some CSS and make it work half-way. But
> it takes a COMPETENT designer to create CSS which produces the desired
> results without browser-specific hacks.

> So again you show your level of competence.

Jerry, where You got Your "hacks"? You start talking about some "hacks" and
I've tried to get You back into conversation but You're driving Your own way.
I think, with Your inability to read this discussion as much counterproductive
as it is offtopic here.


--
Sincerely Yours, AnrDaemon <anrdaemon [at] freemail.ru>

Nice fight. Popcorn anyone ?

Seriously stop blabling, you're both right and wrong at the same time imo.

It's obvious and well known that *SOME* things aren't handled the proper
way under IE 6, 7 and Firefox, not to mention other compatibilities
which our customers almost never ask for (Opera, Safari...).
Turnaround are nothing more than hacks, may they be "nicely presented"
(e.g. the "!important" directive) or not ("\*/", "_width"...)

It would be so nice as Jerry said to design in such a way that you don't
need to hack anything at all, still designers often propose complex,
sophisticated templates which you can't always render without a hack,
and you can't change/soften them without having that designer yelling at
you and commanding you to correct it asap... Lucky guys are the ones
that can avoid that and design their CSS properly, not even thinking a
single second about which browser to handle. Though it's not a
competence matter.

Still, I don't like the point about a php CSS. I mean, it may be useful,
but either:
- you have a lot of changes, it's useful but there is definitely a
problem in your design if you need 2 differents CSS for the same
rendering in different browsers
- you have a few changes and a browser specific CSS with a few modified
lines and browser triggers such as "<!--[if lte IE 6]>" can do the job.

Anyway, this is a whole debate, I'm not against having PHP generated
CSS, I hate the above triggers though I admit it's useful, BUT this is a
PHP newsgroup, not CSS, thus not the place to discuss such a .... well,
yeah, such a troll. Cause everyone his own opinion.

But there's no need to argue on "you lack knowledge" "no you don't know
what you talk about" "I know, and you said <shit>, proof of concept,
you're lame" and so on.

Regards,
--
Guillaume

AnrDaemon wrote:
> Greetings, Jerry Stuckle.
> In reply to Your message dated Monday, April 7, 2008, 17:01:35,
>
>>>>>>>>> is it possible to control css with php
>>>>>>>> Sure. CSS can be generated with PHP, just like HTML can.
>>>>>>>> The main question being - why?
>>>>>>> In example, You have 3 browsers (Regular desktop, Mobile client (GPRS-WAP and
>>>>>>> the like), specialized in-application browser) what should render the same
>>>>>>> page without loosing of readability. Yes, You can send different CSS for every
>>>>>>> single one, but maintaining 3 different files isn't easy, if they are so
>>>>>>> close and You need to make changes in them all if something goes to change.
>>>>>>> Much simpler to have PHP script that acting to serve CSS template and adapt it
>>>>>>> to every browser. Even then, with server-side caching it's very fast process,
>>>>>>> and with proper headers it will be cached on the client side too.
>>>>>> And even simpler is to have valid CSS which works in all browsers.
>>>>> Yes, create a page "Hello, World!" and be happy with it!
>>>>> Sorry but I need real pages, not dummy examples.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you don't need hacks like you are promoting.
>>>>> Your words just showing a complete lacks of knowledge in specified situation.
>>>>> Figure out Yourself, why...
>>>> Not at all. A lot of other webmasters I know also create very
>>>> complicated pages all the time which work in all browsers. But it
>>>> doesn't surprise me that you are incapable of doing it without your hacks.
>>> It is good only if browser support that complicated CSS... Sorry Jerry, but
>>> You're lost in Your ideal world. Sad thing is that, reality different from
>>> Your expectations.
>
>> Yea, anyone can hack together some CSS and make it work half-way. But
>> it takes a COMPETENT designer to create CSS which produces the desired
>> results without browser-specific hacks.
>
>> So again you show your level of competence.
>
> Jerry, where You got Your "hacks"? You start talking about some "hacks" and
> I've tried to get You back into conversation but You're driving Your own way.
> I think, with Your inability to read this discussion as much counterproductive
> as it is offtopic here.
>
>

Not at all. You're the one who says you need to hack your CSS with
browser sniffing code to make it work. A competent designer can do it
without any hacks.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex [at] attglobal.net
==================

Guillaume wrote:
> Nice fight. Popcorn anyone ?
>
> Seriously stop blabling, you're both right and wrong at the same time imo.
>
> It's obvious and well known that *SOME* things aren't handled the proper
> way under IE 6, 7 and Firefox, not to mention other compatibilities
> which our customers almost never ask for (Opera, Safari...).
> Turnaround are nothing more than hacks, may they be "nicely presented"
> (e.g. the "!important" directive) or not ("\*/", "_width"...)
>

Agreed. So you work around them.

> It would be so nice as Jerry said to design in such a way that you don't
> need to hack anything at all, still designers often propose complex,
> sophisticated templates which you can't always render without a hack,
> and you can't change/soften them without having that designer yelling at
> you and commanding you to correct it asap... Lucky guys are the ones
> that can avoid that and design their CSS properly, not even thinking a
> single second about which browser to handle. Though it's not a
> competence matter.
>

It can be done. It's not always easy, but you can do it. That's what
makes a great developer - one who knows the strengths and weaknesses of
each browser and generates compliant CSS which works with all of them.

It is a competence matter. And you can work with designers to make it
happen.

The problem is - what happens when you another version of a browser
comes out? If you're already hacking it for some browsers, now you need
to go back and hack it more for new browsers.

It may not look *exactly* the same in every browser - but HTML was never
meant to replicate the printed page. And you can make it so close that
people don't notice - i.e. one or two pixels off.

> Still, I don't like the point about a php CSS. I mean, it may be useful,
> but either:
> - you have a lot of changes, it's useful but there is definitely a
> problem in your design if you need 2 differents CSS for the same
> rendering in different browsers
> - you have a few changes and a browser specific CSS with a few modified
> lines and browser triggers such as "<!--[if lte IE 6]>" can do the job.
>

I agree there's a problem if you need more than one CSS. But I still
maintain a good developer can do it. I know of several.

> Anyway, this is a whole debate, I'm not against having PHP generated
> CSS, I hate the above triggers though I admit it's useful, BUT this is a
> PHP newsgroup, not CSS, thus not the place to discuss such a .... well,
> yeah, such a troll. Cause everyone his own opinion.
>

In that I agree.

> But there's no need to argue on "you lack knowledge" "no you don't know
> what you talk about" "I know, and you said <shit>, proof of concept,
> you're lame" and so on.
>
> Regards,


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex [at] attglobal.net
==================

..oO(Jerry Stuckle)

>Not at all. You're the one who says you need to hack your CSS with
>browser sniffing code to make it work. A competent designer can do it
>without any hacks.

Only if you completely ignore IE, which is the main problem. In some
cases you definitely need to fix things for IE 6 or 7. Thankfully
there's at least one useful feature in IE - conditional comments. They
allow to fix IE bugs without invalidating your main CSS or affecting
other browsers.

Of course it would be much better without such hacks or workarounds, but
IE is still the most used browser, so you have to take care about it.

Micha

..oO(Jerry Stuckle)

>It can be done. It's not always easy, but you can do it. That's what
>makes a great developer - one who knows the strengths and weaknesses of
>each browser and generates compliant CSS which works with all of them.

This is impossible. Standards-compliant CSS doesn't work in IE and IE-
compliant CSS doesn't work in other browsers. There are simply too many
bugs in IE's CSS engine - even in version 7 - which you can't ignore.

>It may not look *exactly* the same in every browser - but HTML was never
>meant to replicate the printed page.

Absolutely correct, but IE is able to completely screw-up even rather
simple HTML/CSS structures. Then you only have two choices IMHO:

1) rebuild the HTML and CSS, leave out all advanced features, only use
CSS 1, add a dozen classes to the HTML to overcome IE's lack of the
more advanced CSS selectors, avoid PNGs with alpha-transparaceny and
many, many more ...

or

2) use standards-compliant HTML and CSS, use all available features to
keep the code clean and efficient for real browsers, use IE's
conditional comments to add workarounds where absolutely necessary

I definitely prefer the 2nd option.

Micha

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:44:00 -0500, Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex [at] attglobal.net>
wrote:

>> In example, You have 3 browsers (Regular desktop, Mobile client (GPRS-WAP and
>> the like), specialized in-application browser) what should render the same
>> page without loosing of readability. Yes, You can send different CSS for every
>> single one, but maintaining 3 different files isn't easy, if they are so
>> close and You need to make changes in them all if something goes to change.
>> Much simpler to have PHP script that acting to serve CSS template and adapt it
>> to every browser. Even then, with server-side caching it's very fast process,
>> and with proper headers it will be cached on the client side too.
>
>And even simpler is to have valid CSS which works in all browsers. Then
>you don't need hacks like you are promoting.

Nope, sometimes doing it the server-side way is easyer. Usually it involves
IE... (I'd love to just ignore that browser but...).

--
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all the different... the way the trees are."

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 09:01:35 -0400, Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex [at] attglobal.net>
wrote:

>>> Not at all. A lot of other webmasters I know also create very
>>> complicated pages all the time which work in all browsers. But it
>>> doesn't surprise me that you are incapable of doing it without your hacks.
>>
>> It is good only if browser support that complicated CSS... Sorry Jerry, but
>> You're lost in Your ideal world. Sad thing is that, reality different from
>> Your expectations.
>>
>>
>
>Yea, anyone can hack together some CSS and make it work half-way. But
>it takes a COMPETENT designer to create CSS which produces the desired
>results without browser-specific hacks.
>
>So again you show your level of competence.

It's a large waste of time and limits what you can do... Yes, you can leave
those nasty translucent PNG images defined in your CSS away totally - or you
can go with the standard and have some IE's showing them as black boxes
without any image in them - OR you can simply check the browser and use that
piece of CSS with everything except IE.

IE doesn't follow rules - should you limit yourself to IE or to standards?
Where it doesnt make your page more difficult to browse I'd suggest going with
standards and making an alternative for IE (eg. bullet images with alpha
transparency on html-lists are nice but can be replaced with .gif images for
IE - the only other way is to use .gif for everything else).

--
***/--- Sir Robin (aka Jani Saksa) Bi-Sex and proud of it! ---\***
**/ email: robsku [at] fiveam.NO-SPAM.org, <*> Reg. Linux user #290577 \**
*| Me, Drugs, DooM, Photos, Writings... http://soul.fiveam.org/robsku |*
**\--- GSM/SMS: +358 44 927 3992 ---/**
"Jokainen linkki, jonka päätteenä on ".org", on kelvoton tiedonlähde."
- Nikolas Mäki

Greetings, Guillaume.
In reply to Your message dated Tuesday, April 8, 2008, 19:28:26,

> Nice fight. Popcorn anyone ?

Just a note: I've been speaking about 3 completely different browsers. Not
just 3 major desktop browsers that can render 99% of CSS2... but different 99%
each.
I understand the rest of Your post as I were able to write it myself, if
things were the same as You have mentioned. I'm competent with CSS2 and I do
know enough to make it looks almost equally in any of the 3 major desktop
browsers, but not me nor You can make it looks the same in limited built-in
browser or in cell-phone browser (even if it is Opera). Altough both of the
last have some knowledge in CSS, they limiting support in both tags and CSS
directives by different reasons.
I made this post just to reenter the rules under what I have used such
technique (PHP-generated CSS), not to produce more flame.


--
Sincerely Yours, AnrDaemon <anrdaemon [at] freemail.ru>