=HI!

I was addressed to this maillist to ask a simple question:

are there any plans at ActiveState for making a Perl 6 compiler
in recent future?

The question is simple but the situation is not. There is almost
complete language specification already but there is no compiler
that can work in real life at real time with realistic speed.
All we have now for playing with Perl 6 is a Pugs tool which
is good but slow.

I wonder if ActiveState have any ideas to complete the race.


--
Andrew Shitov
____________________________________________________________ __________
andy [at] shitov.ru | http://www.shitov.ru

_______________________________________________
ActivePerl mailing list
ActivePerl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs

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I second. I too have been watching the Perl 6 development and I have
played around with PUGS. I really want Perl6 to succeed and very eager to
know what are ActiveState's plans on Perl6?

Regards,

Sam Dela Cruz
__________________________________________________________
Business Applications, Application Developer
AMEC Operations Management - North America









Andrew Shitov <andy [at] shitov.ru>
Sent by:
activeperl-bounces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
05/04/2007 12:20 PM
Please respond to
Andrew Shitov <andy [at] shitov.ru>


To
activeperl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
cc

Subject
Plans for Perl 6
Classification







=HI!

I was addressed to this maillist to ask a simple question:

are there any plans at ActiveState for making a Perl 6 compiler
in recent future?

The question is simple but the situation is not. There is almost
complete language specification already but there is no compiler
that can work in real life at real time with realistic speed.
All we have now for playing with Perl 6 is a Pugs tool which
is good but slow.

I wonder if ActiveState have any ideas to complete the race.


--
Andrew Shitov
____________________________________________________________ __________
andy [at] shitov.ru | http://www.shitov.ru

_______________________________________________
ActivePerl mailing list
ActivePerl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs


--=_alternative 006F319D882572D1_=
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I second.  I too have been watching
the Perl 6 development and I have played around with PUGS.  I really
want Perl6 to succeed and very eager to know what are ActiveState's plans
on Perl6?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sam Dela Cruz<br>
__________________________________________________________<br>
Business Applications, Application Developer<br>
AMEC Operations Management - North America<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=33%>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Andrew Shitov <andy [at] shitov.ru></b>
</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">activeperl-bounces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/04/2007 12:20 PM</font>
<table border>
<tr valign=top>
<td bgcolor=white>
<div align=center><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br>
Andrew Shitov <andy [at] shitov.ru></font></div></table>
<br>
<td width=66%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">activeperl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Plans for Perl 6</font>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Classification</font></div>
<td></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<div align=right>
<br></div></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>=HI!<br>
<br>
I was addressed to this maillist to ask a simple question:<br>
<br>
are there any plans at ActiveState for making a Perl 6 compiler<br>
in recent future?<br>
<br>
The question is simple but the situation is not. There is almost<br>
complete language specification already but there is no compiler<br>
that can work in real life at real time with realistic speed.<br>
All we have now for playing with Perl 6 is a Pugs tool which<br>
is good but slow.<br>
<br>
I wonder if ActiveState have any ideas to complete the race.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Andrew Shitov<br>
____________________________________________________________ __________<br>
andy [at] shitov.ru | http://www.shitov.ru<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ActivePerl mailing list<br>
ActivePerl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com<br>
To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
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_______________________________________________
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ActivePerl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
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Please note that ActiveState is not trying to create competing implementations to the open source community. Even if we wanted to,
we simply would not have the resources to do that. It takes a full community to eventually arrive at a working, maintainable,
production-quality implementation.



I understand that many people are frustrated by the amount of time that has elapsed since the idea of Perl 6 was first discussed.
But some things simply cannot be rushed beyond a certain speed; otherwise you have to redo them as soon as you finish your first
draft.



ActiveState can help with packaging of pre-built binaries, providing installers and additional tools. But I feel that it is still
too early to do this for Perl 6. I think we should spend any additional time we find on improving our Perl 5 support instead.



But I'm also interested in hearing what other people out there thing that ActiveState should be doing.



Cheers,

-Jan



From: activeperl-bounces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com [mailto:activeperl-bounces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of Sam Dela Cruz
Sent: May 4, 2007 1:16 PM
To: Andrew Shitov
Cc: activeperl-bounces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com; activeperl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
Subject: Re: Plans for Perl 6




I second. I too have been watching the Perl 6 development and I have played around with PUGS. I really want Perl6 to succeed and
very eager to know what are ActiveState's plans on Perl6?

Regards,

Sam Dela Cruz
__________________________________________________________
Business Applications, Application Developer
AMEC Operations Management - North America










Andrew Shitov <andy [at] shitov.ru>

Sent by:
activeperl-bounces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com

05/04/2007 12:20 PM


Please respond to
Andrew Shitov <andy [at] shitov.ru>


To

activeperl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com


cc



Subject

Plans for Perl 6


Classification










=HI!

I was addressed to this maillist to ask a simple question:

are there any plans at ActiveState for making a Perl 6 compiler
in recent future?

The question is simple but the situation is not. There is almost
complete language specification already but there is no compiler
that can work in real life at real time with realistic speed.
All we have now for playing with Perl 6 is a Pugs tool which
is good but slow.

I wonder if ActiveState have any ideas to complete the race.


--
Andrew Shitov
____________________________________________________________ __________
andy [at] shitov.ru | http://www.shitov.ru

_______________________________________________
ActivePerl mailing list
ActivePerl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'>Please note that ActiveState is not trying to create =
competing
implementations to the open source community. Even if we wanted to, we =
simply
would not have the resources to do that. It takes a full community to
eventually arrive at a working, maintainable, production-quality
implementation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'>I understand that many people are frustrated by the =
amount of
time that has elapsed since the idea of Perl 6 was first discussed. But =
some
things simply cannot be rushed beyond a certain speed; otherwise you =
have to
redo them as soon as you finish your first =
draft…<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'>ActiveState can help with packaging of pre-built =
binaries,
providing installers and additional tools. But I feel that it is still =
too
early to do this for Perl 6. I think we should spend any additional time =
we
find on improving our Perl 5 support instead.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'>But I’m also interested in hearing what other =
people out
there thing that ActiveState should be doing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif" ;
color:#1F497D'>-Jan<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span=
></a></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"' >From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"' >
activeperl-bounces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-bounces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Sam
Dela Cruz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> May 4, 2007 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Andrew Shitov<br>
<b>Cc:</b> activeperl-bounces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com;
activeperl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Plans for Perl 6<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I =
second.
 I too have been watching the Perl 6 development and I have played =
around
with PUGS.  I really want Perl6 to succeed and very eager to know =
what are
ActiveState's plans on Perl6?</span> <br>
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sam Dela Cruz<br>
__________________________________________________________<br>
Business Applications, Application Developer<br>
AMEC Operations Management - North America<br>
</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%"
style=3D'width:100.0%'>
<tr>
<td width=3D"33%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:33.0%;padding:.75pt =
..75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>A ndrew
Shitov <andy [at] shitov.ru></span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>S ent =
by:</span>
<br>
<span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>a ctiveperl-bou=
nces [at] listserv.ActiveState.com</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>0 5/04/2007
12:20 PM</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D1 cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'background:white;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
..75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>P lease =
respond to<br>
Andrew Shitov <andy [at] shitov.ru></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td>
<td width=3D"66%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:66.0%;padding:.75pt =
..75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%"
style=3D'width:100.0%'>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>T o</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</td>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>a ctiveperl [at] lis=
tserv.ActiveState.com</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>c c</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</td>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>S ubject</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>P lans
for Perl 6</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>C lassification=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td>
</tr>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<tt><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=3DHI!</span></tt><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<br>
<tt>I was addressed to this maillist to ask a simple question:</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>are there any plans at ActiveState for making a Perl 6 =
compiler</tt><br>
<tt>in recent future?</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>The question is simple but the situation is not. There is =
almost</tt><br>
<tt>complete language specification already but there is no =
compiler</tt><br>
<tt>that can work in real life at real time with realistic =
speed.</tt><br>
<tt>All we have now for playing with Perl 6 is a Pugs tool =
which</tt><br>
<tt>is good but slow.</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>I wonder if ActiveState have any ideas to complete the =
race.</tt><br>
<br>
<br>
<tt>--</tt><br>
<tt>Andrew Shitov</tt><br>
<tt> ____________________________________________________________ _________=
_</tt><br>
<tt>andy [at] shitov.ru | http://www.shitov.ru</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>_______________________________________________</tt><br>
<tt>ActivePerl mailing list</tt><br>
<tt>ActivePerl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com</tt><br>
<tt>To unsubscribe: =
http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs</tt></span><o:p></o:p></p>=


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_______________________________________________
ActivePerl mailing list
ActivePerl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
--===============2113159676==--

I agree. Such is the blessing and the curse of the community-based =

product. I too feel the depreciating excitement of the arrival of Perl6 =

as time goes by. Though I have in part switched to C# for certain =

implementations, Perl still has a unique productivity efficiency, though =

it is not easily recognised by those looking in from the 'outside'.

I am very happy that ActiveState is providing excellent binary support =

for the Windows users, which I am a part of (though not exclusively). =

Through the ppd I am able to set up my web app framework with relative ease.

Moving forward, how does ActiveState take to the idea of supporting =

emerging Perl-based projects? Some ideas:

1. PDK makes writing Windows services and binary packaging relatively =

easy. Unless I am missing the picture somewhere, the act of writing a =

full-GUI windows app is still open game. Between Win32::GUI and wxPerl, =

I prefer the latter to be more platform agnostic. The wxPerl people =

unfortunately still need to take care of themselves. It will be =

wonderful if we can have ActiveState not only support it at the repo =

level, but ENHANCE and include it as part of the PDK offerings.

2. Excite people back into the Perl community through the fame of the =

technologies that are supported by the language. Looking at indexing =

engines, we have Swish-E (with almost exclusive Perl libraries for =

extension), and Kinosearch (with a responsive maintainer helping the =

guys on the mailing list). POGL was recently revised to version 0.55 =

with PPM support. Think of the ASF building projects around it. Make =

ActiveState the reference point of all these exciting activities.

Just my thoughts.


Jan Dubois wrote:
>
> Please note that ActiveState is not trying to create competing =

> implementations to the open source community. Even if we wanted to, we =

> simply would not have the resources to do that. It takes a full =

> community to eventually arrive at a working, maintainable, =

> production-quality implementation.
>
> I understand that many people are frustrated by the amount of time =

> that has elapsed since the idea of Perl 6 was first discussed. But =

> some things simply cannot be rushed beyond a certain speed; otherwise =

> you have to redo them as soon as you finish your first draft=85
>
> ActiveState can help with packaging of pre-built binaries, providing =

> installers and additional tools. But I feel that it is still too early =

> to do this for Perl 6. I think we should spend any additional time we =

> find on improving our Perl 5 support instead.
>
> But I=92m also interested in hearing what other people out there thing =

> that ActiveState should be doing.
>

_______________________________________________
ActivePerl mailing list
ActivePerl [at] listserv.ActiveState.com
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On Wed, 09 May 2007, Foo JH wrote:
> Moving forward, how does ActiveState take to the idea of supporting
> emerging Perl-based projects? Some ideas:
>
> 1. PDK makes writing Windows services and binary packaging relatively
> easy. Unless I am missing the picture somewhere, the act of writing
> a full-GUI windows app is still open game. Between Win32::GUI and
> wxPerl, I prefer the latter to be more platform agnostic. The
> wxPerl people unfortunately still need to take care of themselves.
> It will be wonderful if we can have ActiveState not only support it
> at the repo level, but ENHANCE and include it as part of the PDK
> offerings.

The ActiveState preferred choice of Perl GUI toolkit is Tkx (or Tcl::Tk).
Tkx is bundled with the latest ActivePerl releases for all 32-bit
platforms. It does provide native look-and-feel on Windows (including
themed widgets on WinXP) and OS X (Aqua) and does X11 on the rest of the
Unix platforms.

Check out the PPM4 GUI client; it is written using Tkx. All GUI
applications in the PDK are built using this technology as well. It is
supported by PerlApp in PDK 7, so you can use it to deploy standalone
applications too.

Drawbacks of using Tkx are:

1) There is not a lot of documentation. It helps if you know Tcl to fully
understand the documentation of the widgets.

2) It doesn't support MSAA 2.0, so it doesn't play nicely with screen
readers.

As far as I know the situation with wxPerl isn't any better with regards
to these 2 issues though.

Cheers,
-Jan

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Hi Jan,

On 10/05/2007, at 10:24 AM, Jan Dubois wrote:
> ActiveState can help with packaging of pre-built binaries,
> providing installers and additional tools. But I feel that it is
> still too early to do this for Perl 6. I think we should spend any
> additional time we find on improving our Perl 5 support instead.
>
> But I=92m also interested in hearing what other people out there
> thing that ActiveState should be doing.

While there's a lot of talk about Perl 6, I think it can be argued
that Perl5 is not going to go away any time soon, or even "quickly"
after the release of Perl 6. It took a *long* time, even with all the =

huge functionality improvements offered, to encourage people and
companies to migrate away from Perl 4 code after Perl 5 was released.

Since specifications have been/were in flux for so long, there are
lot of people, and yes, I'm one of them, who have not really bothered =

to look all that much at Perl 6.

I have no doubt there'll be a point where ActiveState needs to build
and maintain both Perl5 and Perl6 environments, but as a commercial
entity, there needs to be (a) a profitable motive and (b) a stable
product to enhance. In the meantime, I certainly look forward to
continuing to work using ActiveState Perl 5.x and the PDK.

(Oh, and my request for what ActiveState should be working on? While
slightly off-topic, I'd love an option in PDK on Mac OS X to _not_
produce Universal binaries, and allow the person running perlapp to
nominate universal/ppc/intel. I know UB's are cool, and would like to =

offer both PPC and Intel versions separately. Compiling on a Linux vs =

a Mac OS X host, my distributions go from 45MB (Linux) to ~90MB ...)

Cheers,

Preston.

--
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pdeguise [at] gmail.com

http://www.anywebdb.com

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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Jan,<DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On =
10/05/2007, at 10:24 AM, Jan Dubois wrote:</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><DIV class=3D"Section1"><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><SPAN =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:" calibri","sans-serif";=3D"" =
color:#1f497d"=3D"">ActiveState can help with packaging of pre-built =
binaries, providing installers and additional tools. But I feel that it =
is still too early to do this for Perl 6. I think we should spend any =
additional time we find on improving our Perl 5 support instead.<SPAN =
style=3D"" calibri","sans-serif";=3D"" color:#1f497d"=3D""><O:P =
style=3D"">=A0</O:P></SPAN></SPAN></P><P class=3D"MsoNormal"><SPAN =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:" calibri","sans-serif";=3D"" =
color:#1f497d"=3D"">But I=92m also interested in hearing what other =
people out there thing that ActiveState should be doing.<SPAN style=3D"" =
calibri","sans-serif";=3D"" color:#1f497d"=3D""><O:P =
style=3D"">=A0</O:P></SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><DIV>Wh=
ile there's a lot of talk about Perl 6, I think it can be argued that =
Perl5 is not going to go away any time soon, or even "quickly" after the =
release of Perl 6. It took a *long* time, even with all the huge =
functionality improvements offered, to encourage people and companies to =
migrate away from Perl 4 code after Perl 5 was released.=A0</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Since specifications have =
been/were in flux for so long, there are lot of people, and yes, I'm one =
of them, who have not really bothered to look all that much at Perl =
6.</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I have no =
doubt there'll be a point where ActiveState needs to build and maintain =
both Perl5 and Perl6 environments, but as a commercial entity, there =
needs to be (a) a profitable motive and (b) a stable product to enhance. =
In the meantime, I certainly look forward to continuing to work using =
ActiveState Perl 5.x and the PDK.</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>(Oh, and my request for =
what ActiveState should be working on? While slightly off-topic, I'd =
love an option in PDK on Mac OS X to _not_ produce Universal binaries, =
and allow the person running perlapp to nominate universal/ppc/intel. I =
know UB's are cool, and would like to offer both PPC and Intel versions =
separately. Compiling on a Linux vs a Mac OS X host, my distributions go =
from 45MB (Linux) to ~90MB ...)</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Cheers,</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Preston.</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV> <SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
"><DIV>--</DIV><DIV>Preston de Guise</DIV><DIV><A =
href=3D"mailto:pdeguise [at] gmail.com">pdeguise [at] gmail.com</A></DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><A =
href=3D"http://www.anywebdb.com">http://www.anywebdb.com</A></DIV><DIV><BR=
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>NOTE: Receipt of this email =
does not constitute an agreement to be added to any mailing lists, =
unless so stated in the main body of the message.<BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> =
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> The ActiveState preferred choice of Perl GUI toolkit is Tkx (or Tcl::Tk).
>
I like the GUI version of PPM. Very clean. Helped me identify a new
version of DBI along the way...

And I agree with you that wxPerl isn't exactly easy to learn either. Bit
of pain along the way. People know there's a problem, but I guess we
don't have enough contributions to soup it up.

But Jan, what do you think of my point 2, on ActiveState being a focal
point for the Perl projects out there?
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>
> Drawbacks of using Tkx are:
>
> 1) There is not a lot of documentation. It helps if you know Tcl to fully
> understand the documentation of the widgets.
>
> 2) It doesn't support MSAA 2.0, so it doesn't play nicely with screen
> readers.
>
> As far as I know the situation with wxPerl isn't any better with regards
> to these 2 issues though.
>

Most WXPerl widgets are accessible for screen readers, although not as
accessible as Win32::GUI.
Tkx and Tk create widgets that are not accessible at all.

Octavian



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> The ActiveState preferred choice of Perl GUI toolkit is Tkx (or Tcl::Tk).
> Tkx is bundled with the latest ActivePerl releases for all 32-bit
> platforms. It does provide native look-and-feel on Windows (including
> themed widgets on WinXP) and OS X (Aqua) and does X11 on the rest of the
> Unix platforms.

This statement just prompted some confusion that I'd like to take the
opportunity to hopefully resolve...

In short, what's up with the different Tk offerings there apparently is?

I thought *the* Tk package was exactly that - the Tk package that comes
prepackaged when I install ActivePerl (which I understand is what goes under
the name Perl/Tk?). It has a large amount of documentation, there's a book
(Learning Perl/Tk) and so on. But then I see docs for Tkx - teeny tiny in
comparison. And there's mention of Tcl::Tk - how does that relate to the
others. Or are they all the same??? Or good at different things? I see that
Tkx is 'yet another Tk interface' and it provides a bridge to Tcl, and
Tcl::Tk seems to mean something similar - does that mean I somehow need
(Active)Tcl installed? And how does that play with creating a simple perlapp
with a minimum fuss?

Obviously, you can see there's a bunch of confusion on my part :-), so some
help in getting the issues straight would be helpful...

My guess is that I should shoot for either Tkx or Perl/Tk, but why one or
the other? Or should I really, really go for something else entirely? My
needs very, very shortly: must run on several platforms (Linux, Solaris,
Win32 etc), ActivePerl and PDK, ease of use, ease of installing/maintaining
etc, some good docs etc.

Well, any input on all this is appreciated...

ken1

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On May 10, 2007, at 04:48, Preston de Guise wrote:
> (Oh, and my request for what ActiveState should be working on?
> While slightly off-topic, I'd love an option in PDK on Mac OS X to
> _not_ produce Universal binaries, and allow the person running
> perlapp to nominate universal/ppc/intel. I know UB's are cool, and
> would like to offer both PPC and Intel versions separately.
> Compiling on a Linux vs a Mac OS X host, my distributions go from
> 45MB (Linux) to ~90MB ...)

I have not tried this myself but I would think it should be possible
to run the 'lipo -remove ppc' on the binaries in the ActivePerl
distribution before you package up your application with perlapp. It
might be worth a try. Having an option to perlapp to do this for you
when it package up the binary would be much nicer, especially if you
need to build both ppc and i386 binaries from the same machine.

Running 'lipo -remove' on the binary that perlapp produce would not
be effective as lipo has no way of accessing the binary objects that
are embedded inside the binary.

Regards,
Gisle

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On May 10, 2007, at 09:58, Kenneth =D6lwing wrote:

>> The ActiveState preferred choice of Perl GUI toolkit is Tkx (or =

>> Tcl::Tk).
>> Tkx is bundled with the latest ActivePerl releases for all 32-bit
>> platforms. It does provide native look-and-feel on Windows (including
>> themed widgets on WinXP) and OS X (Aqua) and does X11 on the rest =

>> of the
>> Unix platforms.
>
> This statement just prompted some confusion that I'd like to take the
> opportunity to hopefully resolve...
>
> In short, what's up with the different Tk offerings there =

> apparently is?

Let me try to explain then:

Tk is an extension for the Tcl runtime that provide a Tcl language =

API for writing GUI applications.

Tkx is a bridge to an Tcl language interpreter that also loads the Tk =

extension for you. Recent versions of ActivePerl ships with a =

dynamic library (tkkit.dll) that contains the latest stable version =

of the Tcl language runtime and some useful Tcl extensions including =

Tk (read "perldoc Tcl::tkkit" to figure what's included). This allow =

Tkx to load even if you don't have ActiveTcl or another version of =

the Tcl language runtime installed on your machine. If you have a =

Tcl runtime installed you can tell Tkx to connect to it by setting an =

environment variable.

Perl/Tk is a binding to the Tk extension that bypass the Tcl =

language. In order to achieve this it uses a modified version of the =

Tk sources. This approach has the disadvantage that it's (hard) work =

to update the sources to more recent versions of Tk. Because nobody =

has been willing to do this work Perl/Tk has basically been frozen at =

Tk version 8.4.5 for many years now with very limited access to other =

Tk extensions provided by the Tcl community. One effect of this is =

that Perl/Tk applications need X11 on Mac OS X and doesn't get the =

native Aqua look.

Tcl::Tk is using the same bridge to Tcl as Tkx is using but tries to =

maintain the Perl language source API that Perl/Tk invented. Tkx =

goal was not to preserve the Perl/Tk API, but to provide a clean/ =

minimal API that give you direct access to the Tcl objects. Tcl::Tk =

is not distributed with ActivePerl, but you can install it with ppm. =

If you have an old application written for Perl/Tk it ought to be =

less work to port it to Tcl::Tk than to Tkx. Your mileage may vary.

I would regard Perl/Tk as legacy code in ActivePerl. It's there to =

support old applications written against that API. For new =

applications Tkx is recommended as that give you access to the newest =

development to the Tk code base. As Jan said Tkx is what we use to =

write all the Perl GUI tools at ActiveState.

Regards,
Gisle

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Gisle Aas <> wrote:
> On May 10, 2007, at 09:58, Kenneth =D6lwing wrote:
> =

>>> The ActiveState preferred choice of Perl GUI toolkit is Tkx (or
>>> Tcl::Tk). Tkx is bundled with the latest ActivePerl releases for
>>> all 32-bit platforms. It does provide native look-and-feel on
>>> Windows (including themed widgets on WinXP) and OS X (Aqua) and
>>> does X11 on the rest of the Unix platforms.
>> =

>> This statement just prompted some confusion that I'd like to take the
>> opportunity to hopefully resolve...
>> =

>> In short, what's up with the different Tk offerings there apparently
>> is?
> =

> Let me try to explain then:
> =

> Tk is an extension for the Tcl runtime that provide a Tcl language
> API for writing GUI applications. =

> =

> Tkx is a bridge to an Tcl language interpreter that also loads the Tk
> extension for you. Recent versions of ActivePerl ships with a
> dynamic library (tkkit.dll) that contains the latest stable version
> of the Tcl language runtime and some useful Tcl extensions including
> Tk (read "perldoc Tcl::tkkit" to figure what's included). This allow
> Tkx to load even if you don't have ActiveTcl or another version of
> the Tcl language runtime installed on your machine. If you have a
> Tcl runtime installed you can tell Tkx to connect to it by setting an
> environment variable. =

> =

> Perl/Tk is a binding to the Tk extension that bypass the Tcl
> language. In order to achieve this it uses a modified version of the
> Tk sources. This approach has the disadvantage that it's (hard) work
> to update the sources to more recent versions of Tk. Because nobody
> has been willing to do this work Perl/Tk has basically been frozen at
> Tk version 8.4.5 for many years now with very limited access to other
> Tk extensions provided by the Tcl community. One effect of this is
> that Perl/Tk applications need X11 on Mac OS X and doesn't get the
> native Aqua look. =

> =

> Tcl::Tk is using the same bridge to Tcl as Tkx is using but tries to
> maintain the Perl language source API that Perl/Tk invented. Tkx
> goal was not to preserve the Perl/Tk API, but to provide a clean/
> minimal API that give you direct access to the Tcl objects. Tcl::Tk =

> is not distributed with ActivePerl, but you can install it with ppm.
> If you have an old application written for Perl/Tk it ought to be
> less work to port it to Tcl::Tk than to Tkx. Your mileage may vary. =

> =

> I would regard Perl/Tk as legacy code in ActivePerl. It's there to
> support old applications written against that API. For new
> applications Tkx is recommended as that give you access to the newest
> development to the Tk code base. As Jan said Tkx is what we use to
> write all the Perl GUI tools at ActiveState. =


Just to add my 2p worth.

There is a lot of documentation, and plenty of examples, for Tk, but they a=
re Tcl based. This is, for me at least, a significant obstacle to switching=
to use Tkx. Until that changes (and it is several months since I looked*),=
or I get a better understanding of Tcl, and I don't currently have either =
the time or a pressing need for that, I don't see me using Tkx in the near =
future.

My advice to the OP is to try writing a demo, or proof of concept, programs=
using both Tk and Tkx, and make your decision based on that. If you decide=
on using Tkx, then publishing those demo programs would be of great use to=
those trying to make the same decision as you, or those who are familiar w=
ith Tk wondering how to use Tkx. I would certainly be in the latter group.

[* If that has changed, I would be grateful for any pointers.]

HTH

-- =

Brian Raven =


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>I would regard Perl/Tk as legacy code in ActivePerl. It's there to
>support old applications written against that API. For new applications
>Tkx is recommended as that give you access to the newest development to
>the Tk code base. As Jan said Tkx is what we use to write all the Perl
>GUI tools at ActiveState.

Thanks, I think that clears up most of the confusion - definitively seems
like Tkx is the way to go, rather than Perl/Tk. Well, unless there are very
good alternatives that 'I must not miss'...?

Are there no/some/lots of quirks when perlapping something using Tkx? I
assume it's a nobrainer, since you're apparently doing it with your tools,
but just looking for confirmation...

What would you consider the best resources to get started? I see there's a
Tkx tutorial, and there are references to using the 'real' Tcl documentation
to figure out how to call something from Perl - I have no Tcl background but
I assume it shouldn't be very hard. Anything else you know of that would
spare me a lot of work - literature, websites with good how-to's?

Thanks for your help - my next step is RTFM & hands-on, I guess...:-)

ken1

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>There is a lot of documentation, and plenty of examples, for Tk, but they
>are Tcl based. This is, for me at least, a significant obstacle to
>switching to use >Tkx. Until that changes (and it is several months since I
>looked*), or I get a better understanding of Tcl, and I don't currently
>have either the time or a >pressing need for that, I don't see me using Tkx
>in the near future.

Well, the doc side is worrisome, agreed

>My advice to the OP is to try writing a demo, or proof of concept, programs
>using both Tk and Tkx, and make your decision based on that. If you decide
>on >using Tkx, then publishing those demo programs would be of great use to
>those trying to make the same decision as you, or those who are familiar
>with Tk >wondering how to use Tkx. I would certainly be in the latter
>group.

As I have no prior familiarity with either (beyond reading the book on
Perl/Tk), it seems like I might as well plunge straight into Tkx considering
that it seems to be a more future-proof path. I'll just have to endure the
lack of (or at least, the Tcl based) docs. I think...well, I'm not quite
into the stage where I have to start grappling with it, so I'll ponder it
for a bit...

Thanks for your help,

ken1

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On May 10, 2007, at 12:59, Brian Raven wrote:
> There is a lot of documentation, and plenty of examples, for Tk,
> but they are Tcl based. This is, for me at least, a significant
> obstacle to switching to use Tkx. Until that changes (and it is
> several months since I looked*), or I get a better understanding of
> Tcl, and I don't currently have either the time or a pressing need
> for that, I don't see me using Tkx in the near future.

The documentation situation has not changed since you looked and
ActiveState does not have short-term plans for improving the
situation much in this area either. It might be possible to write a
program that automatically translated the Tk docs to the Tkx syntax,
but this is made a bit difficult by Tcl and its extensions not using
a consistent documentation format.

> My advice to the OP is to try writing a demo, or proof of concept,
> programs using both Tk and Tkx, and make your decision based on
> that. If you decide on using Tkx, then publishing those demo
> programs would be of great use to those trying to make the same
> decision as you, or those who are familiar with Tk wondering how to
> use Tkx. I would certainly be in the latter group.

FYI, Tkx comes with the programs 'tkx-ed' and 'tkx-prove' as simple
demo programs that might be a good starting points. If you want to
see more complex example look at the source for the
ActivePerl::PPM::GUI module (not the best example as parts of it is
implemented in Tcl).

Regards,
Gisle

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On May 10, 2007, at 13:15, Kenneth =D6lwing wrote:
> Are there no/some/lots of quirks when perlapping something using =

> Tkx? I assume it's a nobrainer, since you're apparently doing it =

> with your tools, but just looking for confirmation...

It's a nobrainer if you only depend on the Tcl extensions that we =

provide in the tkkit.dll. If you need to bundle extra extensions in =

the form of Tcl code or dynamic libraries there is some creativity =

needed.

> What would you consider the best resources to get started? I see =

> there's a Tkx tutorial, and there are references to using the =

> 'real' Tcl documentation to figure out how to call something from =

> Perl - I have no Tcl background but I assume it shouldn't be very =

> hard. Anything else you know of that would spare me a lot of work - =

> literature, websites with good how-to's?

I think I would start by installing ActiveTcl and then learn some =

basic Tcl, at least enough to write some very trivial apps. That =

should be enough to follow the docs easily. If you are on Mac OS X =

you already have Tcl; just run 'wish'.

Regards,
Gisle



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Can Tkx (or Tcl in general) use custom-made Windows widgets developed in
..NET and loaded via DLL?

I will say this about the documentation for Tkx and Tcl::Tk: They both
seem to assume the programmer knows Tcl and/or is migrating from
Perl/Tk. They seem to have little self-contained documentation for the
programmer who is just starting out, or who is migrating from an
incompatible toolset (e.g. Win32::GUI).

Eric

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On Thu, 10 May 2007, Gisle Aas wrote:
> > My advice to the OP is to try writing a demo, or proof of concept,
> > programs using both Tk and Tkx, and make your decision based on
> > that. If you decide on using Tkx, then publishing those demo
> > programs would be of great use to those trying to make the same
> > decision as you, or those who are familiar with Tk wondering how to
> > use Tkx. I would certainly be in the latter group.
>
> FYI, Tkx comes with the programs 'tkx-ed' and 'tkx-prove' as simple
> demo programs that might be a good starting points. If you want to see
> more complex example look at the source for the ActivePerl::PPM::GUI
> module (not the best example as parts of it is implemented in Tcl).

tkx-ed and tkx-prove are in the Perl/bin directory in recent ActivePerl
releases.

There is also the tcltk [at] perl.org mailing list for discussion of Tcl, Tkx
and Tcl::Tk development. The list is very low volume, so I'm sure a
couple of usage questions on that list wouldn't be a problem...

Cheers,
-Jan

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On Wed, 09 May 2007, Foo JH wrote:
> > The ActiveState preferred choice of Perl GUI toolkit is Tkx (or
> > Tcl::Tk).
> >
> I like the GUI version of PPM. Very clean. Helped me identify a new
> version of DBI along the way...
>
> And I agree with you that wxPerl isn't exactly easy to learn either.
> Bit of pain along the way. People know there's a problem, but I guess
> we don't have enough contributions to soup it up.

Yes, that is a general problem. Even the Perl 6 implementers are
complaining about the lack of contributors.

> But Jan, what do you think of my point 2, on ActiveState being a focal
> point for the Perl projects out there?

Could you elaborate a bit how you envision this "focal point" to work?
I would prefer to hear some concrete examples, and not just general
hand-waving... :)

Cheers,
-Jan

PS: I forgot to mention this earlier in this thread, but there is
also Perl 5.10 coming up later this summer. It has a bunch of
interesting new features too (some borrowed from the Perl 6 specs):

* regular expression improvements
- engine is no longer recursive, so won't run out of memory
- named capture groups
- lots of other bells & whistles
* assertions
* user defined lexical pragmata
* native switch statement
* smart match operator
* state variables
* "defined or" operator
* say keyword
* field hashes (for inside-out object support

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On Thu, 10 May 2007, Roode, Eric wrote:
> Can Tkx (or Tcl in general) use custom-made Windows widgets developed
> in .NET and loaded via DLL?

I don't think you can do this. There is a .NET binding for Tcl called
TclBridge that allows you to use .NET objects from Tcl, but I don't think
you can combine .NET widgets with Tcl widgets without some additional
C code hacking.

You can use .NET forms and stuff from Perl using PerlNET from the Perl
Dev Kit. The docs contain a trivial example to display a WinForms dialog:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/docs/PDK/7.0/PerlNET_overvi ew.html#perlnet_overview_winforms

In general it will probably be easier to design the UI using Visual Studio
and one of the forms designers in C# or VB.NET. You can still implement
the event callbacks in Perl using PerlNET with some creative hackery.

> I will say this about the documentation for Tkx and Tcl::Tk: They both
> seem to assume the programmer knows Tcl and/or is migrating from
> Perl/Tk. They seem to have little self-contained documentation for the
> programmer who is just starting out, or who is migrating from an
> incompatible toolset (e.g. Win32::GUI).

This is indeed a problem. Note that the Tcl::Tk module explicitly
tries to emulate the API of the old Tk module so that you can
continue to use the existing PerlTk books etc. Unfortunately the
implementation of Tcl::Tk covers only about 80% [1] of the existing
Tk APIs, so you will still run into areas where you need to figure
things out from the Tcl docs.

Cheers,
-Jan

[1] Beware that I essentially just made up this number based on a few
comments I heard from people trying to use Tcl::Tk.

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> Could you elaborate a bit how you envision this "focal point" to work?
> I would prefer to hear some concrete examples, and not just general
> hand-waving... :)
>
Focal point concept is similar to the Apache Foundation, where multiple
technologies are being developed. People get to know about and trust
these technologies because they trust the ASF 'brand'.

ActiveState is not ASF in the sense that it does not fund the various
Perl projects.Think of it like a Perl-based project directory.

If ActiveState can collect these projects under its site, it can:
1. Convince people there's momentum with commercial value on the Perl
platform.
2. Bring awareness of the various Perl projects that's around to the
Perl community.
3. Help make these projects easy to deploy under the ActivePerl platform
(prinarily via the PPDs. Kinosearch for example usually does not have an
updated PPD).

ActiveState is already synonymous with Perl on the Windows platform. Now
make it the platform for implementing the various Perl-based
technologies as well.

Some strategic advantages:
1. If more people can be convinced to pick up Perl, that's a bigger
community to purchase ActiveState products from.
2. If more people will consider ActivePerl frameworks for deploying
Perl-based project engines, that will encourage the takeup of your
ActiveState products.

> PS: I forgot to mention this earlier in this thread, but there is
> also Perl 5.10 coming up later this summer.
From what I read, there's not much improvement to the thread control.
That's quite disappointing.


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Hi all,
is there anything in the queue to use wide characters in API functions e.g.
for file names, reading registry, ....?
So far as I can see there is no reliable way to handle such things at the
moment.
Bye
Torsten Werner



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